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Old 28-01-2018, 08:54   #16
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

Well, many of those who feel safe in a multi, also feel safe in a production boat. Either works. Multi's have had the same problems you mention that production boats have; unsupported rudder failures. Production boats do work for offshore, but they do have some failures also. There are risks and there are risks. Personal decision how much you are willing to risk for what you hope to gain. As you said, you can go on a log raft. An analogy might be cars. A big , heavy SUV like a Cadillac Escalade is safer in a crash. But you can go in a SmartCar... and may never have a wreck!
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Old 28-01-2018, 09:45   #17
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
Often the condition of the boat and the person sailing it has more to do with the likely hood of it arriving safely than the design itself, IMHO.

I can only agree

I also agree with a caveat....I would not recommend at 23 Grampian or a Catalina 22 for Pacific crossings :-)
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Old 28-01-2018, 09:47   #18
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

I want to say that we wanted a multihull, but were so poor we could only afford half of one.
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Old 28-01-2018, 11:18   #19
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

Just look at the present round the world racers and tell me they are not
"Bluewater" boats. They are sailed like cruisers never will. They survive.

Even the 21 footers race across the blue ocean. As light and as fast as
they are.are.

I have owned very heavy, moderate and ultralight. Each for several
years.
I would never go back to my popular heavy Bluewater boat. To
frustratingly slow and unresponsive.

That being said a modern design is a definite improvement over antique.
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Old 28-01-2018, 11:21   #20
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

As others have said, you can cross oceans in, or on, pretty much anything. I`m sure Hawaiians`used logs before they improved them as ocean canoes, therefore, I think the term `Bluewater`should apply strictly to the captain of the vessel because, when you make a statement that this kind of boat or that kind is incapable of crossing an ocean, somebody, somewhere, is bound to set out and do it, just to prove how wrong you are.
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Old 28-01-2018, 11:37   #21
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

bluewater boats are so small a fraction they largely dont exist new anymore
what the market seeks, supposedly, are cruiser/racers,
ie. boats no good at either
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Old 28-01-2018, 12:05   #22
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

I crossed the atlantic on a Swan 48... a true "blue water" boat with deep full keel. It was miserable. We rolled gunnel to gunnel on a dead run for weeks. The noise and motion made it almost impossible to do anything. Even taking a pee was a major endeavor. We ate badly, slept badly, and became disagreeable.

Later, I saw a youtube video of the same crossing on a cat. They were eating suppers at a table with wine glasses. Preparing real meals on a stove without gimbal or pot clamps. They showered, dressed nicely, and seemed to have a lovely time on a spacious boat that goes much faster than a mono.

I am now considering a cat instead of the traditional long keel mono. However, price will still be the dominant factor in choosing my next boat.
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Old 28-01-2018, 12:33   #23
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

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Originally Posted by hamburking View Post
I crossed the atlantic on a Swan 48... a true "blue water" boat with deep full keel. It was miserable. We rolled gunnel to gunnel on a dead run for weeks. The noise and motion made it almost impossible to do anything. Even taking a pee was a major endeavor. We ate badly, slept badly, and became disagreeable.

Later, I saw a youtube video of the same crossing on a cat. They were eating suppers at a table with wine glasses. Preparing real meals on a stove without gimbal or pot clamps. They showered, dressed nicely, and seemed to have a lovely time on a spacious boat that goes much faster than a mono.

I am now considering a cat instead of the traditional long keel mono. However, price will still be the dominant factor in choosing my next boat.
AFAIK a Swan 48 is not a very cheap boat either. Unless you go for a small-mid mono, you can set e.g. a Lagoon 380 vs a 50' mono. True, the cat will be still a bit more expensive to buy+run but it's not a 50' mono vs 50' cat comparison. If you factor in that wife will prefer staying on the cat vs the hotel on shore that could shift the balance completely

Alas, simple folks limited to <40' budget like me have no business in the cat market.
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Old 28-01-2018, 12:49   #24
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

So, let me think about this for about a nanosecond. When I raced from Victoria BC to Maui, I was a bowman on a MacGregor 65. Is that a bluewater boat? When we left Hilo Harbour on our own cruise, a couple on an engineless Catalina 30 said they would just sail to the US coast and call the Coast Guard for a tow. Not sure if that was a Bluewater boat either. What we saw in anchorages of Papeete or Raitea/Tahaa would cause us to pause. Is downwind sailing Bluewater sailing? To me, Bluewater boats are vessels capable of receiving full value insurance while in the non-coastal offshore waters of the world. Whether a production vessel, or a custom built design, the quality, tankage, equipment, rig and expertise of the owner/crew is more important than how much the vessel cost or the lineage of the builder. You will be alone for long periods of time if Bluewater cruising is your interest, choose wisely.
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:00   #25
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

Quote:
Originally Posted by GARRYOWEN View Post
Please read the whole question which will be below my preamble before shooting from the hip with an answer.

This is NOT a thread about monohull vs. multihull.
This is NOT a thread about saildrives good/bad.
This is NOT a thread about pitchpolling or going upside down.
This is NOT a thread about haulout or docking expenses.
This is NOT a thread about additional equipment/gear needed for circumnavigation.
This is NOT a thread about my sailing experience.
This is NOT a thread about any of the usual things people who love or hate multihulls get triggered about.

I have been reading forums and watching videos and reading books, etc and I've found, for a lack of a better description, a discrepancy in what people put on the internet about bluewater boats.

In a nutshell here is my current view of what the vocal sailing community thinks:
---bluewater Mono hulls exclude the so called production boats (Benateau, Jeanneau, Hanse, Bavaria, etc etc.)with bolt on keels, sail drives, unprotected rudders and rigging-gear-sails-hardware are just not sturdy enough for extended circumnavigation but are fine for a crossing or some cruising.
---bluewater Multi hulls can be any boat above 40 feet, this does not exclude any new "production boat" (Leopard, FP, Lagoon, etc, etc, etc) so any boat above the "right size" is a bluewater circumnavigating boat.

Also, an ocean can be crossed on some logs tied together so let's not go there.


Whole Question: Am I missing something? There seems to be no great stigma attached to so called "production boat" in the multihull cruising universe compared to the monohull cruising universe when it comes to living aboard and sailing around the world. Is it just that the great majority of people posting on the internet about multihulls just do "coastal cruising" and the majority of people posting on the internet about monohulls are "circumnavigators"?
I guess it might start with the definition of blue water? Some may say past the COLREGS line, some when the shore gets out of sight or where the water turns blue, etc, etc. I'm guessing it's what boat lights your fire. Production boat or not, the designer is probably more important. What is he designing for, or what portion of the public are they building for? Boat of floating condo? You will probably get as many opinions as posters.
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:12   #26
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

Quote:
I crossed the atlantic on a Swan 48... a true "blue water" boat with deep full keel.
A Swan 48 with a full keel??? Could you point out that specific designm please... I've never seen or heard of a Swan with a full keel.

And why do you describe this vessel as blue water? They are generally considered racer/cruisers rather than full on cruisers, albeit of high quality. The ones that I have been aboard were poorly set up for cruising.

So, I'm left wondering what point you were trying to make with this example of an unpleasant (but successful) voyage?

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Old 28-01-2018, 14:24   #27
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherchronica View Post
I want to say that we wanted a multihull, but were so poor we could only afford half of one.
Two cheap mono-hulls and a telephone pole and bobs your uncle, a nice Cat!
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:32   #28
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

Aside from proper planning, I figured there were two types of "bluewater" (subjective term) boats. Ones that could outrun a storm and ones that could survive a storm. Personally, I prefer fast and comfortable cause I already own the other kind.
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Old 28-01-2018, 15:10   #29
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

As a marine surveyor I have learned that if it floats it could be considered blue water capable. Some of the wrecks or badly designed yachts that end up in our marinas in Australia after crossing the pacific just make me shake my head. Some people just seem to be born under a lucky star and others I think have no idea of the dangers they are facing and set of with their fingers crossed.
Shane Acton sailed Shrimpy an 18 foot bilge keeler around the world and not to many people would call her blue water.
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Old 28-01-2018, 15:53   #30
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Re: Researching boats: Question about "bluewater" moniker

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTom View Post
AFAIK a Swan 48 is not a very cheap boat either. Unless you go for a small-mid mono, you can set e.g. a Lagoon 380 vs a 50' mono. True, the cat will be still a bit more expensive to buy+run but it's not a 50' mono vs 50' cat comparison. If you factor in that wife will prefer staying on the cat vs the hotel on shore that could shift the balance completely

Alas, simple folks limited to <40' budget like me have no business in the cat market.
LOL!

The Swan was not mine!

The wife has gone awol!

My budget is a joke!

But I'll find a boat. And I'm going sailing!!!
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