Island Packet 420 - Opinions?

[sailstoo]

I would ask myself why I would consider a boat with questionable sailing performance when there are other quality brands out there at this or similar price points that don't bear that handicap?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It is sort of meaningless yes, as of course the engine thrust moves the apparent wind angle forward, in my world it was called relative wind (aviation)

However it is not meaningless when you consider that with just enough engine RPM to smooth it out and give good battery charging ability, I can approach hull speed and burn I think maybe 1/2 gl an hour, and to me more importantly the noise level is very low.
I have not measured fuel burn, that is a guess as normal cruise for me is 2000 RPM at 6.5 to 7 kts and one gl an hour.

I guess it's a work around of sorts, but it works.

Certainly motor sailing at low RPMs gets you there with lesser fuel burn. The apparent or true wind angle is meaningless when comparing to other boats performance if you are motor sailing - that's what I meant by meaningless.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by sailstoo

I would ask myself why I would consider a boat with questionable sailing performance when there are other quality brands out there at this or similar price points that don't bear that handicap?

I personally don't think that IP's have a compromised sailing characteristic.
Do they point as well as others....NO
Do they sail as fast as others....NO
But news flash. Unless you are the top dog, there will always be some one ahead of you and closer to the wind.

And remember they are made for cruising not week night club regattas.
Hence why they are beamy and have a full keel.

My "J" boat beats the IP's on almost all points of sail. But there is no way that I would want to go cruising for a week or two, on her. Heck, I don't even like overnighting on her.

A few years ago we were changing marinas on a local lake. Both boats had to be moved. I elected to solo the IP while #2 son and crew took the "J" boat.
As it was a beat the whole trip, they worked the Asses off while the old man did his lazy tacks and consumed cold beer with his foot doing the steering.
Sure after a three hour beat, they got to the new marina a half hour before me. But when I pulled into the slip, the three of them were napping in the cockpit. Exhausted from all the work.
I just rolled my eyes and said, "yeah.. what ever".

Fin keel boats will always sail faster and point higher than full keel boats. It is a fact. No getting around it. But the full keel gives better stability and aids in self tracking. Not too many fin keeler's can handle a full set of sails, in 20kts of winds and still be "hands off of the wheel". I do this daily on the IP/s.
Also I weight as much if not more than similar sized fin keelers, yet I only draw 4 1/2 feet. And I find it very, very hard to hit 20 degrees heal angle while on a reach. The "J doesn't come alive until she at 25.

To me its a matter of what I want from sailing. If I want the adrenaline rush, I'm on the "J". If I just want to sail and get to the destination well rested... the IP is the only option.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by sailstoo

I would ask myself why I would consider a boat with questionable sailing performance when there are other quality brands out there at this or similar price points that don't bear that handicap?

In truth I bought the IP for its build quality, comfort and seemingly lots of interior storage and room for a 38' boat, and to sell it. It was meant to be a starter boat, but I knew enough that if it wasn't comfortable my better half was going to veto this cruising idea I had.

Coming from a Sportfishing background the idea of going places always at trolling speeds was a little insane to me, I wasn't so sure I could stand traveling so slowly, but I was willing to give it a go.

It's my first and only sailboat so I cannot speak from experience, but I believe it's pretty much an accepted fact that if your in this primarily for the sailing, an IP is not your boat. I'm in this primarily for the travel and adventure, but I want comfort and safety, and didn't have the $$$ for a Pacific crossing capable power boat. I have become to enjoy sailing much more than I thought I would though, I will sail whenever possible, I have come to have a love / hate relationship with the baby Yanmar, I love how the thing is so reliable and sips fuel, but hate listening to the thing.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Certainly motor sailing at low RPMs gets you there with lesser fuel burn. The apparent or true wind angle is meaningless when comparing to other boats performance if you are motor sailing - that's what I meant by meaningless.

I am not arguing with you, all I was trying to point out was that seemingly I can travel at the same speeds and apparent wind angle of a "real" sailboat if I crank that Yanmar and bump it to just over idle, the Autoprop will increase pitch as necessary to load the engine.

Of course it's cheating, it's like stating that an electric motor on a beach cruiser bicycle replicates an expensive lightweight road bike, it's an abomination to a Roadie, however if the mission is go to the store for eggs and return, it works just as well.

I'm sitting in Panama City Fl right now waiting for weather to cross to Clearwater, if I were a "real" Sailor, I'd go right now in the 10 ft waves and sail the whole way, but I will wait until Sat when the waves are 3 ft or less and likely motor a lot, but I won't make the wife seasick.

[Tayana42]

a64pilot, I've been sailing for 48 years and I like your attitude.

[Paul L]

a64pilot
Using the engine to compensate for a lack of pointing ability works fine in light stuff. It results in an ugly ride when you push a boat higher than it is designed to point in rough conditions. When I cruised on my J-37 I could crack off 5 to 10* from close hauled, the boat speed would pick way up, the ride would get comfortable and we were still sailing closer to the wind than most larger cruising boats p!Us we had lower forces on the boat because we didn't need much sail.
Whenever I hear the stories of motor sailing to windward to get to the destination and how suckie the passage was, I just think What did you expect?
Sailing close hauled offshore to get somewhere usually offers an uncomfortable ride. Sailing even higher with the motor on offers an even more uncomfortable ride.

[a64pilot]

OK just the other day we were out having to sail close hauled, this is about as close as she can get and still get good performance. I estimate wind speed to be about 15 kts, but anemometer is missing so it's an estimate, boat was heeling about 15 degrees which is right about all I will let her, she can go a little faster but heels more and things become uncomfortable so I either reduce sail or loosen sheets to depower.
I think this is not bad for an over loaded cruising boat, that has a reputation for being a little piggish, and being sailed by someone that has not idea what they are doing.
Now the water speed has been calibrated, and I know how to calibrate airspeed flying the four cardinal headings and averaging the readings so I know the knot meter is calibrated

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by sailstoo

I would ask myself why I would consider a boat with questionable sailing performance when there are other quality brands out there at this or similar price points that don't bear that handicap?

Depends what you are looking for. This is my opinion only, but IP's are designed more for elderly people who dont like sailing. They are awesome liveaboard boats and are very well built construction-wise. They used to keep their value better than any other sailboat that I know of. Not sure if that still applies.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

OK just the other day we were out having to sail close hauled, this is about as close as she can get and still get good performance. I estimate wind speed to be about 15 kts, but anemometer is missing so it's an estimate, boat was heeling about 15 degrees which is right about all I will let her, she can go a little faster but heels more and things become uncomfortable so I either reduce sail or loosen sheets to depower.
I think this is not bad for an over loaded cruising boat, that has a reputation for being a little piggish, and being sailed by someone that has not idea what they are doing.
Now the water speed has been calibrated, and I know how to calibrate airspeed flying the four cardinal headings and averaging the readings so I know the knot meter is calibratedAttachment 150979

Take your course over ground on the tack. Then tack over to the opposite take, trim the boat close hauled and write down the new COG. Subtract the the two COG and divide by 2. That will tell how close to the wind you are sailing. Just looking at the apparent wind angle tells you how close to the app wind you can set the sails. It doesn't let you know how much leeway your hull is actually making. The more you pinch up, the slower the boat speed and the more leeway you'll get --- once you go beyond the boats/sails design. The GPS COG does not lie - as long as there is no significant current.

[rostyvyg]

Originally Posted by sailstoo

I would ask myself why I would consider a boat with questionable sailing performance when there are other quality brands out there at this or similar price points that don't bear that handicap?

Listen, an Island packet is just not a light air boat. Same way as an RV is not a sports sedan. The boat was designed with one purpose - "cruising". She will get you from point A to point B in comfort in pretty much any condition. She will not tire you in the process. She will carry fuel, water and provisions for months. She will hold tools and spare parts, and extra sails and no one would even notice where all this stuff is stored on that boat. The thought process that went into design of Island Packets with all attention to tiniest details, the quality of the craftsmanship, the proprietary materials used in construction - those yachts are Rolls-Royces of the boat world. Check the gelcoat of a 20 years old Island packet and compare it to a 5 year old any other boat. No chalking, no crazing, smooth and shiny regardless of prior maintenance or luck of it.

Anyway, as one of my friends said "There are people who hate Island Packets and there are people who can afford to buy one" :-)

That's not to detract from a point that a beautiful sunset in the Carnelian could be equally enjoyed from a cockpit of Beneteau, Jenneau, Catalina, Hunter or a 35 years old Cape Dory.

Whatever makes you happy.

So, happy sailing!

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Take your course over ground on the tack. Then tack over to the opposite take, trim the boat close hauled and write down the new COG. Subtract the the two COG and divide by 2. That will tell how close to the wind you are sailing. Just looking at the apparent wind angle tells you how close to the app wind you can set the sails. It doesn't let you know how much leeway your hull is actually making. The more you pinch up, the slower the boat speed and the more leeway you'll get --- once you go beyond the boats/sails design. The GPS COG does not lie - as long as there is no significant current.

I actually understand what you are saying. I know how to change course to maintain a ground track in a cross wind, very similar things.
Actually I think I can get an approximation with my Airmar compass heading vs ground track, there is of course lateral drift, and I am sure moreso than a deep fin keel boat.
Still you have to admit that 45 degrees apparent and 7.6 kts ain't bad for an old overloaded cruising boat ? That is very, close to my hull speed, there just isn't that much more left in her.
Again, I am not saying that she can stay with a performance boat, of course she cannot, just saying she isn't as bad as I thought she would be is all.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by rostyvyg

Listen, an Island packet is just not a light air boat. Same way as an RV is not a sports sedan. The boat was designed with one purpose - "cruising". She will get you from point A to point B in comfort in pretty much any condition. She will not tire you in the process. She will carry fuel, water and provisions for months. She will hold tools and spare parts, and extra sails and no one would even notice where all this stuff is stored on that boat. The thought process that went into design of Island Packets with all attention to tiniest details, the quality of the craftsmanship, the proprietary materials used in construction - those yachts are Rolls-Royces of the boat world. Check the gelcoat of a 20 years old Island packet and compare it to a 5 year old any other boat. No chalking, no crazing, smooth and shiny regardless of prior maintenance or luck of it.

Anyway, as one of my friends said "There are people who hate Island Packets and there are people who can afford to buy one" :-)

That's not to detract from a point that a beautiful sunset in the Carnelian could be equally enjoyed from a cockpit of Beneteau, Jenneau, Catalina, Hunter or a 35 years old Cape Dory.

Whatever makes you happy.

So, happy sailing!

They have many redeeming qualities but they are NOT the Rolls-Royce of sailboats. They are solidly built, much more so than Beneteau/Catalina/Hunter etc. But, they have some design issues that I could not get past.

For example, the weird angles most of their beds wind up at. I could not imagine trying to sleep while at a 45 degree angle in a seaway.

The aluminum water tanks were a poor engineering choice that caused many owners much grief.

Using an Iron composite mixture for the keel was a cheapskate option on a boat costing $300,000+.

Their choice of a pedestal seat at the helm went against nearly every other sailboat design. Just not practical if the boat is healed at all.

I looked at dozens of IP's around 10-15 years ago and was impressed with the build quality and live aboard functions. I did not like the in-mast furling, cockpit ergonomics, or the inability to sail into the wind. In another 10-15 years it may be the perfect boat for us, but not now.

[angelfish2]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

... but IP's are designed more for elderly people who dont like sailing...

Oh my! I think I just got the biggest belly laugh of my life!

[a64pilot]

The pedestal seating on the older boats like mine do suck, however what you get for that is true rack and pinion steering, something that is dead simple, two moving parts and heck for strong. Of course only real time I spend behind the helm is not really sailing, it's in channels etc motoring, rest of the time George has the helm.
I'm not a fan of iron in the keel either, newer boats are I think lead, however I have never heard of one instance of it being a problem, but am aware of what happens if salt water ever gets to that iron.
Aluminum water tanks suck, and again I don't think they are in the newer boats, when mine finally goes and one day it will, I'll go to a plastic tank, and likely change the Diesel tank out too as I believe your there, best to change it too.

No boat is perfect, IP's have their problems too just like all the others, the water tank is likely the most expensive to deal with.

Oh, by the way, the deck on an IP can't get wet, unlike almost all other boats, as I fear wet decks above most anything else, I'll swap a one time chainplate fix for a constant worry about wet decks.