Island Packet 420 - Opinions?

[Hud3]

The key to maintaining sound chainplates on an IP is to replace the caulking around the deck penetration every few years. The factory recommended GE Silpruf. It's an easy job, and keeps water on deck from getting to the chainplates.

Also, monitor the weep holes on the inside of the hull, below the chainplates. If you see any water dripping out, it's past time to replace the caulking.

Personally, I think the chainplate "issue" is overblown. The aluminum tanks were a potential corrosion problem, but one that could be easily managed by keeping chlorine out of the tanks.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

My 38 sails happily at 30 degrees true, .

Originally Posted by Ip485

and all the comments about up wind performance grossly exaggerated of course

Were you referring to the "30 degrees true" claim here? That's a tacking angle of 60 degrees, a figure hardly likely with an IP or any other cruising boat (and damn few racing boats)!

I'm not in favor of denigrating IP's sailing capabilities, but neither do I like grossly exaggerated claims of superiority.

Jim

[Frankly]

The L alloy of SS is low carbon which is more corrosion resistant if welded. Annealing also improves the corrosion resistance of a welded structure.

I am convinced that welding temperature is one of the variables in this issue. Most of the failures/ cracks occur just above the weld of the top cross angle weld.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

My 38 sails happily at 30 degrees true, but that's it, she loves 60 degrees,

I also don't know about "30 degree's true".
Both my 26 and 35 could sail at "30 degrees APPARENT), but not very well.

60 degrees apparent is the sweet spot.

I too have seen 7.5 knots on both boats. 8.2 kts, once on the 35.
Heel angle has never exceeded 20 degrees. Have no idea how A64pilot got knocked down.

And as far as the rudder.. it is considered a spade rudder. What most are calling the lower attachment point is really nothing more than a "weed shoe". It add no structural support to the rudder. I know of a few folks who have removed it for good.

As far as the 420, been on one at a boat show, but never sailed one.
But as with all IP's, most likely they are "fat old cows"!!!
But I love my fat ole cow and will never own another brand.

And by the way, now that Hake Marine (IP) is once again owned by IP folks, the brand is not going any where soon.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Were you referring to the "30 degrees true" claim here? That's a tacking angle of 60 degrees, a figure hardly likely with an IP or any other cruising boat (and damn few racing boats)!



I'm not in favor of denigrating IP's sailing capabilities, but neither do I like grossly exaggerated claims of superiority.



Jim

Jim, she can sail with the wind indicator 30 degrees either side of straight ahead. This with the wind speed cups missing, I assume then that is true? Closer than 30 and speed just falls off and head sails luff, Genoa anyway. 30 is work and right at the limit, you have to hand steer as a very few degrees wind change and the Genoa luffs.
Other than taking a video I know of no other way to show it.
You know this is my first and only sailboat, so I don't know if that is all that good or not, also the wind indicator appears to be accurate, with wind dead ahead it indicates wind dead ahead, I had to calibrate that as it was off a few degrees, which explained why she would sail better with wind from the port side . That did confuse me for awhile.

However she will sail at 30 it's not very fast, she does much better at 60, that appears to be the sweet spot.

If I understand then that means there is 60 degrees where I cannot sail, is that not normal?

I have the old Raymarine ST 60 I think instruments, although when the mast is pulled I have an ultrasonic weather station that will go up there.
I assume I will keep the old and the new.

Perhaps the wind indicator is inaccurate, although it doesn't appear to be wrong.

[a64pilot]

I got knocked down by being stupid and caught in a 50 kts squall that had no lightning in it with all sails up, stupid as I know better, know what the cool, fresh breeze meant, had Radar and was not running it.
After the knock down, Radar showed the squall very clearly when I turned it on.
I can only blame stupidity and over tired as I had been running about 60 hours with almost no sleep, and was finally getting good sailing wind, or so I thought.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Jim, she can sail with the wind indicator 30 degrees either side of straight ahead. This with the wind speed cups missing, I assume then that is true? Closer than 30 and speed just falls off and head sails luff, Genoa anyway. 30 is work and right at the limit, you have to hand steer as a very few degrees wind change and the Genoa luffs.
Other than taking a video I know of no other way to show it.
You know this is my first and only sailboat, so I don't know if that is all that good or not, also the wind indicator appears to be accurate, with wind dead ahead it indicates wind dead ahead, I had to calibrate that as it was off a few degrees, which explained why she would sail better with wind from the port side . That did confuse me for awhile.

However she will sail at 30 it's not very fast, she does much better at 60, that appears to be the sweet spot.

If I understand then that means there is 60 degrees where I cannot sail, is that not normal?

I have the old Raymarine ST 60 I think instruments, although when the mast is pulled I have an ultrasonic weather station that will go up there.
I assume I will keep the old and the new.

Perhaps the wind indicator is inaccurate, although it doesn't appear to be wrong.

Does your instrument have True and an Apparent setting? If not, then it is Apparent. You can use one of the online apparent to true wind calculators to estimate the true wind angle. My Outbound can't sail 30* true, so no way will the IP.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Jim, she can sail with the wind indicator 30 degrees either side of straight ahead. This with the wind speed cups missing, I assume then that is true? Closer than 30 and speed just falls off and head sails luff, Genoa anyway. 30 is work and right at the limit, you have to hand steer as a very few degrees wind change and the Genoa luffs.

A64,
Appearent wind angle is what your Windex and uncorrected wind indicator is showing you.
It is also what the sails are seeing. The faster your boat goes the further forward the vane/s will point.

True wind is a calculation. Consisting of your boat speed and apparent wind angle. It is the true direction the wind is blowing in relationship to your boat speed.

Sitting still, true wind and apparent wind will be the same. As the boat starts to move, true wind will remain the same and apparent wind will start moving forward.

In airplane terms, put weather cock on the nose of your plane (wind mounted engines). At the end of the runway, with you sitting still, it will point into the wind (true wind). As you start your take off roll, the weather cock will start to point in the direction of travel (apparent wind).

Get going fast enough the vane will point straight ahead but you could be in a crosswind situation and crabbing.

As you said, IP's will point to around 30 degrees apparent wind.
Just not very well.

About the knock down..
Every sailboat that I have owned, I've been knocked down at least once.
Especially the Hobbie's and Scows.

Except for the IP's. I've never have seen 30 degrees heel angle even when I've tried.
Can't imagine a knockdown. I would have been scared S*^tless.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by Paul L

My Outbound can't sail 30* true, so no way will the IP.

To me, with my racing days over, true wind angle is useless.
Now, apparent wind angle is what I sail exclusively by. It's the only thing that really matters. Even my B&G plotter is set up to show AWA.

I'm here to tell you that both of my IP's will sail (point) to 30 degrees apparent wind!
Just not very well!
In fact boat speed is in the mid 1's.
The head sail sheets are in tight and it takes a good helmsman to keep the heads from luffing. The main traveler is pulled all the way to the windward side. With both the Cunningham and vang as tight as I can get them.

It's not a fun ride, but is doable.

[a64pilot]

OK so it is apparent then, I thought true would be corrected, but understand after a moments thought that it's not.
I guess I was thinking like true airspeed which is corrected for installation errors and air density if I remember correctly.
Normally I would just look for the indicator to know true or apparent, but now the wind speed cups have vanished that is of course non functional.

But back to the chainplates, it's a $10K job, perhaps max $12K if Titanium. I'm led to believe too that if your chainplates break that is not covered under insurence?
What does a good 420 go for, is that not worth putting $10K into chainplates?
Lose a chainplate, and odds are you lose the mast? That could mean lose the boat and if your way off the beaten path, perhaps more?
I guess it depends on your cruising area, I don't know if we will make it or not, but I'm trying to prepare for the South Pacific, and for that I want all new standing rigging, and chainplates too.

Yes the knock down is the one thing my kids and wife talk about, it was not fun. Boat handled it fine, I still had steering so she couldn't have gone past 60 degrees? That is just a guess though, maybe less?
It was however 100% preventable, and the then 28 yr old chainplates held.
I'll know in a month or so what 30 yr old chainplates look like, my boat was essentially unused so I suspect they may be OK.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by missourisailor

To me, with my racing days over, true wind angle is useless.
Now, apparent wind angle is what I sail exclusively by. It's the only thing that really matters. Even my B&G plotter is set up to show AWA.

I'm here to tell you that both of my IP's will sail (point) to 30 degrees apparent wind!
Just not very well!
In fact boat speed is in the mid 1's.
The head sail sheets are in tight and it takes a good helmsman to keep the heads from luffing. The main traveler is pulled all the way to the windward side. With both the Cunningham and vang as tight as I can get them.

It's not a fun ride, but is doable.

If you are trying to plan a passage that is up wind then the true wind angle is what is useful deciding whether you can make a destination on a tack or where you should tack to lay a destination.

Apparent angle is good for setting sails.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

O
Normally I would just look for the indicator to know true or apparent, but now the wind speed cups have vanished that is of course non functional..

I'm at a loss..
What are you calling "cups"?
Are talking about the anemometer cups.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

........

But back to the chainplates, it's a $10K job, perhaps max $12K if Titanium. I'm led to believe too that if your chainplates break that is not covered under insurence?
What does a good 420 go for, is that not worth putting $10K into chainplates?
Lose a chainplate, and odds are you lose the mast? That could mean lose the boat and if your way off the beaten path, perhaps more?
I guess it depends on your cruising area, I don't know if we will make it or not, but I'm trying to prepare for the South Pacific, and for that I want all new standing rigging, and chainplates too.

......

If your insurance covers consequential damage, then the actual chainplate may not be covered but the loss of mast and rig would be.

[Jim Cate]

A64, others have explained about true, apparent and what your instrument is displaying, so I'll not repeat any of that.

When you are pinched up to 30 apparent and going very slowly, you will also be making a lot of leeway. This isn't so easy to visualize, but if you are interested, set your CP to show your track and sail for a while pinched up as described. Then tack, and do it again. Look at your recorded tracks and measure the included angle between the two legs. It will be SUBSTANTIALLY greater than 2x30 degrees, i promise.

The tacking angle and VMG are the only way to understand windward performance in a meaningful way. Typical cruising boats will find that the angle is around 100-110 degrees in reasonably flat water, worse if there is chop. Performance cruisers like the Outbound mentioned above will struggle to do much better than 90 degrees, and "crab crusher" type boats will dial in over 110. The better America's Cup monohulls used to do around 70 degrees IIRC!

There are frequent claims of incredible windward performance, but the above numbers are pretty realistic. I suspect that for best VMG to windward, your boat should be sailed somewhere around 45 degrees apparent, maybe a bit more. I enjoy fooling around with trim and course adjustments to maximize VMG... a holdover from my old racing days. This skill set is useful if you are ever in need of getting upwind when for whatever reason the engine is not available, so even for died in the wool cruisers, some practice is valuable... practice with instrumentation and keen observation of results!

Happy sailing, and I hope your chainplatectomy goes well.

Jim

PS All the above measurements must be made in water with no current, for that will screw up the recorded track angles to a surprising degree!

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by missourisailor

I'm at a loss..
What are you calling "cups"?
Are talking about the anemometer cups.

Yes, but I couldn't spell anemometer and the IPad kept changing the word to all kind of things.

I'm no Insurence guy, but believe that if you fail to maintain something and it breaks, then your on weak ground trying to get Insurence to cover it. If it's common knowledge standing rigging only lasts ten or fifteen years and your 30 yr old rigging breaks, it may not be covered?
I also got that from Mack Sails video where he is talking about chainplate replacement he says breakage is not covered.
I have not called and asked my Insurence agent though.