Island Packet 420 - Opinions?

[Frankly]

When I was considering making the jump from my Hunter to the IP that steering system was one of the biggest concerns. I even talked to Edson about their replacement system on two different occasions. 12 years later I wouldn't have anything else on a cruising boat. Dead simple/ reliable, good rudder feedback, made in Heaven autopilot interface. Worked out a comfortable helm seating arrangement and usually just pushing the buttons as I "sail away".

Other than monel not sure what you would make any longer lasting water tanks out of. The main issue with aluminum is people adding chlorine trying to treat water that was a hose issue not a tank issue. 26 years (and counting) is not a bad life for anything in a marine situation. Would it be nice to have a big removable floor hatch (like on my 32 YO Boston Whaler Outrage) and chainplates that were more accessible, you bet.

All in all Bob Johnson did a pretty remarkable job with these boats. He didn't bat 1000 but I don't think Ted Williams did either.

For the most part people that own one like them for what they were intended to be. Mine is 26 YO and I figure it is good for 50 years with a little TLC. Steering is not going to be on the list for upgrade/ replacement.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I am not arguing with you, all I was trying to point out was that seemingly I can travel at the same speeds and apparent wind angle of a "real" sailboat if I crank that Yanmar and bump it to just over idle, the Autoprop will increase pitch as necessary to load the engine.

Of course it's cheating, it's like stating that an electric motor on a beach cruiser bicycle replicates an expensive lightweight road bike, it's an abomination to a Roadie, however if the mission is go to the store for eggs and return, it works just as well.

I'm sitting in Panama City Fl right now waiting for weather to cross to Clearwater, if I were a "real" Sailor, I'd go right now in the 10 ft waves and sail the whole way, but I will wait until Sat when the waves are 3 ft or less and likely motor a lot, but I won't make the wife seasick.

if you're not racing, it's not cheating. All's fair in love and . . . cruising.


Well, I AM a real sailor, or at least, I'd like to think I am. I was born to it --
been doing it since childhood, and it runs generations in my family. My ancestor (whose portrait I inherited) owned the fleet of sailing scows which brought tourists to Sullivan's Island from Charleston in the early 19th century, and held his own hand to the tillers even in his old age, before the War of Northern Aggression destroyed his business and his life. I sail not an IP, but a fast Bill Dixon cutter with a bulb keel and carbon laminate sails. HOWEVER, I do just the same as you. I might well bash through those 10 foot (3m) waves, but i might also wait for a nice calm and happily motor or motor-sail across. And I might very well use the motor to point a little higher, and not just in light conditions.

Which is a very convoluted way of saying, that there is nothing in the world wrong with the way you sail. Rudolph Diesel did not live in vain.

[Jim Cate]

if you're not racing, it's not cheating. All's fair in love and . . . cruising.

I agree fully with this statement, and will even admit to doing it myself at times.

But, when comparing the SAILING performance of boats, introducing the engine skews the arguments more than a little IMO, and seems inappropriate.

Jim

[a64pilot]

Jim, last picture I posted was no motor, motor would have done little if any good, my waterline length is 33'.

[rostyvyg]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

...But, they have some design issues that I could not get past.

For example, the weird angles most of their beds wind up at. I could not imagine trying to sleep while at a 45 degree angle in a seaway.

The aluminum water tanks were a poor engineering choice that caused many owners much grief.

Using an Iron composite mixture for the keel was a cheapskate option on a boat costing $300,000+.

Their choice of a pedestal seat at the helm went against nearly every other sailboat design. Just not practical if the boat is healed at all...

Well, in a seaway one should use salon settees which make excellent sea berths.
The three digits IP's have lead encapsulated in fiberglass in keels.
Aluminum water tanks are not an issue, aluminum holding tanks are. All IP's designed after 2002 have fiberglass holding tanks. The earlier models will have to have their aluminum holding tanks eventually replaced. I agree, that's a PITA.
Pedestal seat, some like it, some hate it.

Anyway, there is not such thing as a perfect boat. But Bob Johnson spent his life perfecting one...

Sail Far Live Free - Relent to Water Wanderlust!: 4 Simple Questions with Sailboat Designer Bob Johnson

The Man in the Ivory Boat | Cruising World

Bob Johnson | Designer of the Endeavour 40 and 43 Sailboat

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Jim, last picture I posted was no motor, motor would have done little if any good, my waterline length is 33'.

Nope, nothing wrong with that. Well done!

But it is an issue that has come up several times in the past in other threads, and such arguments are kinda frustrating when talking about sail performance.

Jim

[rostyvyg]

Originally Posted by Frankly

All in all Bob Johnson did a pretty remarkable job with these boats. He didn't bat 1000 but I don't think Ted Williams did either.

And speaking about this particular model - Island Packet 420 - it is one of the best sailing (and still affordable) IP's that a crew of two could handle comfortably. Shame they stopped making anything in 40 - 44 ft range for 10 years now. Guess they did not want to compete with their older boats that with proper maintenance still command close to new boats prices...

Performance wise:

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

If you look at the PHRF list of the boas above, BTW, you would see that IP 420 falls squarely in the realm of cruisers from other manufacturers. So this whole discussion is rather pointless.

Just go out and sail! A boat still in your dreams can't take you out into the sea. Get the best boat you can afford and enjoy it to full extent NOW...

[a64pilot]

I understand, I just get a little tired of the Island Packet's are pigs thoughts is all. They are no race boat, but in any decent wind I seem to at least hold my own with most boats, Hunters, Catalina's, Bene's and the like. I know you have heard me tell you about my Avatar, we were running back and forth in the Bay with a Lagoon 380, he was faster on the downwind of course, but we were so much faster upwind that after a couple of laps, we were half a lap ahead when he took the photo.
Only picture I have under sail.
True she is not a light wind boat, but at 12 kts or higher she does better than most would think.
It may be to some extent that my sails are not originals, and that full battened main with a lot of roach can't hurt either.
From my very limited experience it seems that it's all a compromise, and that to some extent the virtues that make a boat a good boat to live in hurt performance, and vice versa. Seems each individual has to make a decision on what they value most, or have more than one boat.

Oh, and I think a 420 will sail circles around me pretty easily.

[a64pilot]

I think IP's get most of their reputation from their owners.
Case in point, it generally accepted that a Volvo is one of the safest cars there is, the accident statistics prove that out, yet the crash tests do not?
Well what it is, is the owners. People who value automobile safety highly, usually are safe drivers, and that skews the stats.
In 1993 the Camaro's crash tests made it the most survivable car of its size that was American made, in 1995 I think the year was when the accident statistics came out, you were more likely to be killed in a Camaro than any other US made vehicle, seems the average Camaro owner was not a safe driver.
I'd assume the average IP owner is older and more laid back and less likely to push the boat, and keep up with sail trim etc.
I don't know how my kid can do it, but he can always "find" a half a knot or so with sail trim that I cannot, he does it instinctively.

[angelfish2]

I agree with you, 64pilot. In fact I had a little rant about that very thing (bad-mouthing Island Packets) at the breakfast table this morning. From what I've seen, almost every thread about IPs end up just like this one.

Every boat, be it sail or power, has some thing about it folks don't like. They all have their good and bad points. For my part, the bottom line is...I love my Island Packet. Period.

[Seabeau]

As a shallow water cruiser, one of my all time favorite boats has been the old IP31 with CB.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by rostyvyg

Well, in a seaway one should use salon settees which make excellent sea berths.
The three digits IP's have lead encapsulated in fiberglass in keels.
Aluminum water tanks are not an issue, aluminum holding tanks are. All IP's designed after 2002 have fiberglass holding tanks. The earlier models will have to have their aluminum holding tanks eventually replaced. I agree, that's a PITA.
Pedestal seat, some like it, some hate it.

Anyway, there is not such thing as a perfect boat. But Bob Johnson spent his life perfecting one...

Sail Far Live Free - Relent to Water Wanderlust!: 4 Simple Questions with Sailboat Designer Bob Johnson


The Man in the Ivory Boat | Cruising World

Bob Johnson | Designer of the Endeavour 40 and 43 Sailboat

I read quite a few IP owner threads about having to replace water tanks.

[angelfish2]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

I read quite a few IP owner threads about having to replace water tanks.

And? So?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

I read quite a few IP owner threads about having to replace water tanks.

Yes, I expect to.
But I go to thinking, quite a few very high end boats made in very well established yards are aluminum, if a boat made from aluminum will last sitting in salt water for decades, why can't a fresh water tank, assuming you are careful to remove chlorine?

[rostyvyg]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

I read quite a few IP owner threads about having to replace water tanks.

Two things to consider:

1. An age of a particular IP model - the factory was quite good listening to owners' feedback and changing designs accordingly (using thicker aluminum, quality controlling welds, changing suppliers) so the 3 digit IP's would have longer water tanks life span.

2. Using bleach to disinfect water tanks (a big no-no for aluminum) and using chlorinated water without filtering it first.