Full Keel Sailboats

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Pendragon35

I have an Alberg 35 too and yeah... going in reverse is .. interesting. I've learned to use prop walk; our stern does go dependably to port. On the other hand, going reverse/forward/reverse...etc, you really can spin her in about her own length. I had to do that in a 40 ft wide fairway once.

Yep on the turning within its own length. Took me about five years to figure it out (I'm a slow learner), but once you do, maneuvering a full keel sailboat in tight spaces was pretty easy.

I don't want to suggest that I think fin keel boats are inferior to full keel. They're not, just different. And if you have actual experience in both, when the subject of ocean crossings comes up the judgement of "superiority" becomes a bit muddy.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Delfin

The D/L of Wingsail's IOR Serendipity makes it "heavier" than the Sabre. There are many lighter boats today as you suggest, but it's hard to argue that the Sabre could be considered as an example of the full keel offshore vessels referenced in this thread.

"it's hard to argue that the Sabre could be considered as an example of the full keel offshore vessels referenced in this thread"


True enough.

Just to quibble, there are versions of Serendipity 43. Our "World Cruiser" version, in light ship mode, has a SA/Displ or 20.89 and Disp/Len of 161.78, somewhat more racier than the Colombia Sabre, but I think that that is/was lovely boat, and I'd say nimble as.

And there are times when I'd not want to be racing against her.

Sailing to Hong Kong... maybe not.

[mstrebe]

Originally Posted by Don C L

My point being the Sabre and J-boats are slender, long overhanging hulls with a long keel and rudder attached designed for racing. When I think of "full keel" I usually think of a Tahiti ketch or a Dreadnought.

What type of keel do you consider your boat to have? Because your Columbia 29 has the exact same kind of keel as my Columbia 32 had.

I'm not proposing that the Columbia Sabre is a transoceanic vessel. I'm saying that it has a full keel, it handles like it has a full keel, I have done offshore passages in it, and it's the source of my experience with the handling of full keel vessels.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

It's the tide. In Puget Sound like any place where there is a lot of tidal range, there is reduced tidal current on shore and often back eddies behind each point or peninsula.

If you need to sail against the tidal current you place the beaches. If you are sailing with the tidal current you play the middle.

Yep, tide is another one of the many things you have to worry about and know when racing.

You can spend all your time on boat setup, crew work, start etc and still lose because you were sailing in an adverse current instead of out of it.

Sometimes just being on the outside of the channel is enough

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Pendragon35

I have an Alberg 35 too and yeah... going in reverse is .. interesting. I've learned to use prop walk; our stern does go dependably to port. On the other hand, going reverse/forward/reverse...etc, you really can spin her in about her own length. I had to do that in a 40 ft wide fairway once.

As long as port was the direction you wanted the stern to go and the wind was very light, the prop walk was very helpful. On the other occassions there was a good dose of random luck in reverse.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by mstrebe

...Columbia Sabre...handles like it has a full keel, I have done offshore passages in it, and it's the source of my experience with the handling of full keel vessels.

That helps me understand some of comments which you made about full keel boats. However what really makes me scratch my head is that your experience on the Sabre leads you to say that full keel boats track better than your Oceanis boats. That really is a shocker.

[malbert73]

I think a lot of folks confuse the reason for this concept of better full keel “tracking” - and ascribe this to the presence of a keel with attached rudder. I think most of these “full keel” boats have deep bilges, narrow beam, and tapered sterns. These traits help boats be easier to steer in a straight line in contrast to beamier, wider transomed boats.
I think if you put a cutaway keel with attached rudder on a more modern cruiser you won’t be pleased with the tracking...

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by mstrebe

What type of keel do you consider your boat to have? Because your Columbia 29 has the exact same kind of keel as my Columbia 32 had.

I'm not proposing that the Columbia Sabre is a transoceanic vessel. I'm saying that it has a full keel, it handles like it has a full keel, I have done offshore passages in it, and it's the source of my experience with the handling of full keel vessels.

Well many refer to nearly full keels with cut away forefoot and rudder attached as a "long keel." I actually though would say the Sabre's keel, relative to its hull, or even relative to its waterline, is more of a fin keel, regardless of the rudder location. I defer to Naval Architects to clarify what exactly makes a fin keel.
I also think what Malbert says about the narrow beam and deeper draft, along with a long or full keel, contributing to tracking ability is a very good point.

[Don C L]

Perhaps this thread is helpful:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...eel-94805.html

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Perhaps this thread is helpful:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...eel-94805.html

And this website will provide a lot of insight into why those who have sailed both light and heavy boats may prefer heavy off shore.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/

Worth looking at the D/L ratios to separate "full keel" from other forms, and Ted Brewer's "Comfort" score reflects how hull forms affect how pleasant the ride might be on different vessels crossing oceans.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Perhaps this thread is helpful:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...eel-94805.html

It's not helpful if trying to come to a consensus.

There are many varying opinions in that thread, and, for example, post #4 states that the presence of a rudder attached to the keel makes it a "full keel" yet I think we have all been agreeing here recently that the 1930's J-Boats and the Colombia Sabre, while having rudders on the back edge of the keel, look and act more like fins.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by KJB

We have a full keel with a cutaway forefoot. All that's been said about their tracking and the way they feel secure is true. It's also true about the maneuvering in tight spaces. I docked at a new slip this morning and it took two tries. I did it early so not many people would be watching.

I sometimes see these guys with modern designs dock their boats almost they're parking a car. That is so not my boat!

I have a fairly unique (i think) full keel in that the ballast is bolted on. It is an 11,000 lb molded lead piece. It is shaped to the hull and when out of the water, it is hard to tell that it is not encapsulated. I tried to upload some pics, but they failed...twice. Happy days!

Don't feel alone, Robin Knox-Johnson's boat Suhaili that he sailed round the world non stop in the first GGR in 1968 had a bolt on keel also. His boat was made totally of Indian Teak otherwise.

https://www.classicboat.co.uk/articl...suhaili-words/

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

It's not helpful if trying to come to a consensus.

There are many varying opinions in that thread, and, for example, post #4 states that the presence of a rudder attached to the keel makes it a "full keel" yet I think we have all been agreeing here recently that the 1930's J-Boats and the Colombia Sabre, while having rudders on the back edge of the keel, look and act more like fins.

Yeah that was somewhat tongue in cheek since there is a good deal of fodder for lively debating.

Really, the book by Adlard Coles, and the more recent edition by Peter Bruce, "Heavy Weather Sailing" helps inform this and MANY other discussions we have here. IIRC Olin Stephens advocated for a D/L of around 300 as optimum in his article in there. That's one guy's opinion, but he seemed to know what he was talking about. For those folks pondering tis topic, I recommend that book.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Hmm I'd still like to maintain that it's not so simple as "full keel" and "fin keel." Displacement, location of the center of gravity and hull design figures in here. The Columbia Sabre is more like a J-boat and I am not sure I'd call J-boats "full keel" except that they aren't going to be as nimble around a harbor.

Yes, exactly. People think of 40 or 50 yr old boats and attribute everything to its keel.
That is like comparing a 57 Chevy to a new car and saying look how much difference radial tires make.

There are more differences to a modern boat to an old one other than the keel shape.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by wingssail

It's not helpful if trying to come to a consensus.



There are many varying opinions in that thread, and, for example, post #4 states that the presence of a rudder attached to the keel makes it a "full keel" yet I think we have all been agreeing here recently that the 1930's J-Boats and the Colombia Sabre, while having rudders on the back edge of the keel, look and act more like fins.

I know you guys all want to believe it’s so, but a full keel does not have to have an attached rudder, but I believe you can say that all full keels boats built before 1980 or so did.
A wide beamed boat with a lot of form stability and a Spade rudder with a full keel sails and handles significantly differently than a narrow champagne bottle hull with an attached rudder.

My IP sails pretty much flat and doesn’t heel like an old narrow full keel boat and it’s Spade rudder enables the little diameter wheel to helm it, and little power required of an autopilot.
It makes it more maneuverable, but still no where near as maneuverable as the average fin keel boat.

I’m not even real sure there is much difference in wetted area between my 5’ deep cut away full keel and a 7’ deep fin keel.
Be interesting to know how much difference there is.

Maneuverability is the biggest difference as near as I can tell.