Smartgauge vs Mastervolt Easyview-5 vs Simarine Pico

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by john61ct

All three caveats are required for ongoing SoC% accuracy.

Plus the accurate AH capacity issue as that walks down.

There is a great deal of focus on SOC accuracy. Often people forget about AHr accuracy.

Both of these measurements can be useful, and the ideal battery monitor would display both of these numbers with perfect accuracy.

For most cycles I am more interested in AHr accuracy. The amount of AHrs I have in deficit is generally the best indicator if I need to be more frugal with electricity, or if I can afford to run the water maker longer, make ice etc. The good news is the AHr status is easier to measure accurately. SOC has more variables so is always less accurate.

One problem with the Smartgauge is that it only displays the SOC. There is no AHr display.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Indeed....

But for some of us.... we need more. I live on the hook 100% of the time in anchorages six months per year, so it's important to me to know when I need to run the generator and for how long. I also want to know what's using the power, how much and where I might be able to cut back. The goal is to reach 100% SOC as often as possible and not burn any more fuel than necessary.

This year we covered 1200nm and used only 275 gallons of diesel for motoring and electrical power generation along with solar. So having a monitoring system that gives adequate feedback is working; money spent on improving the system pays dividends over the years.

I may not look too bright, but I'm like the Borg on Star Trek.... I assimilate knowledge and put it to good use.

Sounds like you need something like the Simarine monitor, which has different shunts to track current into and out of different devices.

Or the cool open source one discussed here: Free Open Source Advance Battery Monitor System - Page 3 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

I can see the point for someone cruising like you do, to keep track of amp/hours. Especially with solar, since solar power going into the system will raise the system voltage and invalidate calculations based on voltage.

I don't see anything special about the Mastervolt monitor -- the Victron one does the same thing, and the auto reset doesn't solve the fundamental problem. I checked my own Victron monitor with SG periodically -- it was terrible, very often grossly overestimating SOC.

Maybe if you used a Mastervolt or Victron columb-counter TOGETHER with a SmartGauge (or simply system voltage), these methods would enlighten each other? If there's no charging going on, Smartgauge (or system voltage) can't overestimate SOC, so use that when consuming to be sure you don't over-discharge. Watch the Mastervolt to understand where you are getting during the day.

Maybe something like that.

[Kenomac]

I've decided to stay with Mastervolt, in fact, the Mastervolt Easyview arrived Friday and I expect the Mastervolt Smart Shunt 500 to be here today. I really like the "plug and play" ease of use of the system and 100% reliability of the Mastervolt products used so far.

I still need to order the Master bus and wiring, and the install looks to be an easy one hour project for April. I'm still interested to find out how the Simarine unit tests and works out for others.

[OceanPlanet]

So far we've been testing the Simarine vs. the Victron BMV on our testing bench. At first the Simarine SOC was WAY off, and the parameters aren't adjustable. However they do point this out in their manual, and that it needs several charge/discharge cycles for it to find itself. We've running automatic full cycles on one of our test Firefly AGM's for several days now, and sure enough it seems to be dialing itself in. It seems at least as accurate as the BMV now, although we were out for the weekend and need to compare today. Also, we had the BMS CEF (Charge Efficiency Factor) set rather low (@ 90%) on the BMV, which made it not count enough incoming Ah's (so would show low SOC until meeting the sync parameters and jumping to 100%). So have adjusted that to 95% for the next cycle to see how it compares to the Simarine.

Even if the Simarine proves to have nearly "Smartgauge-like" SOC accuracy for Pb, we are asking if we can adjust the parameters for some Li battery systems. This is because we often like the monitors to sync to 100% a bit early with Li, so as to minimize the need for absorption time (wasting fuel).

Another note is that the displayed voltage on the Simarine appears to be more accurate than on the BMV. That is, compared to our most-trusted multimeter in the shop. Which isn't saying that's a perfect reading...every monitor/meter we have here says something slightly different than the others...;-)

We haven't had time yet to fire up the new Masterview...the replacement display came in late last week.

[john61ct]

I would not expect Victron to be much better than MasterVolt about supporting integration with third party products. I have seen recent TS responses that show their management also likes to live in a fantasy world where customers only buy their products.

Best approach is to try to identify a retail seller of both lines with a more "open hardware" attitude and sophisticated tech experience to help with integration issues.

Buy everything through them, don't beat them up on price, let them make good margin on the routine stuff, and pick their brains. Obviously full-on consulting fees are in order for major research and testing time.

[CGirvan]

Just wondering how the coulomb counting monitors do with lithium banks. Mainesail on his website praises the smartgauge but not for lithium, which just leaves the coulomb counters.

It would seem that lithium would have better characteristics for these monitors such as lower peukert value, closer parity between amps in vs amps out and less of a capacity loss with age, etc. Do these monitors do a better job of calculating SOC with lithium or are they just as error prone?

[john61ct]

Most LFP owners I've seen use Victron's BMV.

I like the 702 model for its midpoint imbalance feature, since I don't do cell-level.

All coulomb counters need to be full-reset frequently for accuracy, ideally every cycle. Yes LFP may allow for a bit higher accuracy at a bit less frequently. But since it is so quick and easy to get the LFP to Full when you know you'll be cycling, assuming you have a dino-juice source, why wouldn't you?

The trick is either doing it manually (most reliable) or getting everything calibrated for that to happen automatically (can be very difficult)

The latter is doable if you subscribe to MS easy version of defining Full; charge at a consistent rate, get to X voltage and stop. X in my case being 3.45Vpc or 13.8

Then the AH counter just needs to reset Full based on hitting the voltage alone.

The gap in the market is OTS charge sources that do the "just stop" part.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I would not expect Victron to be much better than MasterVolt about supporting integration with third party products. I have seen recent TS responses that show their management also likes to live in a fantasy world where customers only buy their products.

Best approach is to try to identify a retail seller of both lines with a more "open hardware" attitude and sophisticated tech experience to help with integration issues.

Buy everything through them, don't beat them up on price, let them make good margin on the routine stuff, and pick their brains. Obviously full-on consulting fees are in order for major research and testing time.

Both Victron and MV have been fine with working with us to use their products with our Lithionics batteries. For many years we've been putting them (the batteries) into otherwise all-Victron or all-MV boats (and of course we mix brands on our own projects all the time). They know our systems are good, so are more than happy to provide as much of the other stuff as possible. It goes both ways...we are talking with MV to supply them with our new HPI alternators by American Power for fast charging of Li batteries (whether MV or OPE-Li3).

However, they are not happy at all to get involved with DIY Li projects. They've had a few very expensive incidents and don't ever want something like that to happen again...

[john61ct]

Yep, my

> a retail seller of both lines with a more "open hardware" attitude and sophisticated tech experience to help with integration issues

was thinking of you Bruce

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

...

However, they are not happy at all to get involved with DIY Li projects. They've had a few very expensive incidents and don't ever want something like that to happen again...

Well I would not underestimate the DYI world, they are often more innovative than the big production mono-cultures regarding LiFeYPO4.

There is still no BMS product from them out in the market to handle single LiFePO4 / LiFeYPO4 cells because they want to sell their bricks.

Anyway, the Victron have downloadable information on system integration with other BMS based on under-voltage / over-voltage signals for the block and single cell over / under-voltage signals with configuration examples for the Quattro, the chargers and the other products. They have dedicated inputs to turn off charging or the load and they are documented and adjustable by free accessible management software. MasterVolt looses here. I like this approach.

Also "very expensive incidents" caused by Mastervolt products is also not increasing the trustworthiness in their product range either.

Frankly all this gadgets are Lego-like bricks with defined interfaces and adjustable parameters. This is not rocket-science. Some are better than others, but in general they even work without the network layer in between.

I am a DYI person, I do not want / need a system integrator or consulting there. What I do need is a proper documentation. I want to understand every aspect of my system so I can fix it if necessary under way without professional services around. And I need only professional material supplier for the products, wires, parts etc.

Plug & play systems are nice as long as they play, but in case they don't do this any longer, you are in deep trouble because in most cases there is no documentation about the interfaces and the troubleshooting.

A LFP Battery with a BMS is a normal Battery, besides two signal lines for under voltage and over voltage. Some have internal switches and therefore limitations on the charging / discharging current. The better ones leave this sizing to external circuitry, because only the user knows the necessities of his set-up. LFP are able to provide currents up to 10C for a short time, a 100Ah cell can deliver up to 1000A - usually one would not install an internal shunt / solenoid of this size in the BMS for such a small block.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Well I would not underestimate the DYI world, they are often more innovative than the big production mono-cultures regarding LiFeYPO4.

There is still no BMS product from them out in the market to handle single LiFePO4 / LiFeYPO4 cells because they want to sell their bricks.

Anyway, the Victron have downloadable information on system integration with other BMS based on under-voltage / over-voltage signals for the block and single cell over / under-voltage signals with configuration examples for the Quattro, the chargers and the other products. They have dedicated inputs to turn off charging or the load and they are documented and adjustable by free accessible management software. MasterVolt looses here. I like this approach.

Also "very expensive incidents" caused by Mastervolt products is also not increasing the trustworthiness in their product range either.

Frankly all this gadgets are Lego-like bricks with defined interfaces and adjustable parameters. This is not rocket-science. Some are better than others, but in general they even work without the network layer in between.

I am a DYI person, I do not want / need a system integrator or consulting there. What I do need is a proper documentation. I want to understand every aspect of my system so I can fix it if necessary under way without professional services around. And I need only professional material supplier for the products, wires, parts etc.

Plug & play systems are nice as long as they play, but in case they don't do this any longer, you are in deep trouble because in most cases there is no documentation about the interfaces and the troubleshooting.

A LFP Battery with a BMS is a normal Battery, besides two signal lines for under voltage and over voltage. Some have internal switches and therefore limitations on the charging / discharging current. The better ones leave this sizing to external circuitry, because only the user knows the necessities of his set-up. LFP are able to provide currents up to 10C for a short time, a 100Ah cell can deliver up to 1000A - usually one would not install an internal shunt / solenoid of this size in the BMS for such a small block.

Sounds like you have it all planned out.

Yes, that's a nice feature of the Victron. FWIW, long before Victron had an Li battery of their own, we worked with them to supply Genasun GLi for Victron/Genasun systems. That's one reason that Victron built in the aux control inputs for the Multiplus & Quattro to work with other BMS signals.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Well I would not underestimate the DYI world, they are often more innovative than the big production mono-cultures regarding LiFeYPO4.

There is still no BMS product from them out in the market to handle single LiFePO4 / LiFeYPO4 cells because they want to sell their bricks.

Also "very expensive incidents" caused by Mastervolt products is also not increasing the trustworthiness in their product range either.

Given those companies are for-profit organizations, and given they have a sense of the marketplace... they probably aren't so much interested in just selling their current stuff as they are in selling a bunch of whatever it takes to make a good profit. Bricks, Li-compatible stuff, whatever.

No criticism there; if they're on the exchanges, probably a bazillion folks own stock somehow, and benefit via retirement plans. In that sense, company profict can be an OK thing. If the market for Li-stiff expands, I'd expect the companies will lean more that direction too. When it happens.

Sounds like you have a clue, but I'd guess for every expert DIY guy out there, there are some number (5? 10? 100?) of DIY electrical installations that are just fires waiting to happen. And I'd bet that's what the manufacturers would like to avoid; probably a high percentage of those fire guys would blame it on the manufacturer, even though it was really their own lack of expertise at fault. Maybe that's what happened in those "very expensive incidents."

-Chris

[CatNewBee]

I agree, besides the DYI guys, today in the news is another TESLA that burnt down and could not be extincted by the firefighters in Austria and this was a brand new car on a test ride.

So incidents happen even on "professional" installations every day.

What I am saying, if you build and sell components you should provide sufficient information about them.

I also agree to the profit thing. They make profit by selling their gear, if more customers get attracted, more profits will be generated, the DIY market is huge. I see a lot of LiFeYPO4 projects in the RV area built by DYI guys with components and BMS from various start-up companies around. The big player are there not in business, the drop in batteries from them are simply not competitive in capacity, price range and power.

There are really innovative BMS solutions out there done by small engineering teams that run later their start-ups. Using the capacities of large manufacturing outsourcers in china and around the world they have a quick mass output if necessary without the need to build production facilities up front with high financial risks. LFP is a booming market. The yellow Winston Cells offer a great playground for high-end projects from power-walls to of-grid solutions in RV and boating.

[AHoy]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

So far we've been testing the Simarine vs. the Victron BMV on our testing bench. At first the Simarine SOC was WAY off, and the parameters aren't adjustable. However they do point this out in their manual, and that it needs several charge/discharge cycles for it to find itself. We've running automatic full cycles on one of our test Firefly AGM's for several days now, and sure enough it seems to be dialing itself in. It seems at least as accurate as the BMV now, although we were out for the weekend and need to compare today. Also, we had the BMS CEF (Charge Efficiency Factor) set rather low (@ 90%) on the BMV, which made it not count enough incoming Ah's (so would show low SOC until meeting the sync parameters and jumping to 100%). So have adjusted that to 95% for the next cycle to see how it compares to the Simarine.

Even if the Simarine proves to have nearly "Smartgauge-like" SOC accuracy for Pb, we are asking if we can adjust the parameters for some Li battery systems. This is because we often like the monitors to sync to 100% a bit early with Li, so as to minimize the need for absorption time (wasting fuel).

Another note is that the displayed voltage on the Simarine appears to be more accurate than on the BMV. That is, compared to our most-trusted multimeter in the shop. Which isn't saying that's a perfect reading...every monitor/meter we have here says something slightly different than the others...;-)

We haven't had time yet to fire up the new Masterview...the replacement display came in late last week.

I wanted to follow up with you about your testing of the Simarie PICO. I am strongly considering this monitor and was curious what your results were.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by AHoy

I wanted to follow up with you about your testing of the Simarie PICO. I am strongly considering this monitor and was curious what your results were.

Ahoy AHoy,

We'll report more info soon. Our monitor system ace was traveling last week.

This week we're getting Simarine, Victron, Philippi, and Masterview all set up to run simultaneously on our test bench, which is a bit of a production... Will post some pics of the setup soon.

Also, Simarine has been updating firmware for us to test...they have been very responsive.

Quite a fun project!