How Much Abuse do you Tolerate on Your Boat

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

. . But I think it really helps to know the shapes that "going pear shaped" may assume for skippers who take on unknown crew. . . .

Of course. Also going on dates with people you don't know all that well, walking down unknown streets at night, getting into a business deal with someone, buying a used car, choosing a doctor, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Life is full of different risks associated with bad people. You can't avoid these risks (without walling yourself up into a very lonely and boring life), so you have to learn to mitigate them as best as you can.

Sailing, like sex, can be done alone, in a pinch, but it's far more rewarding to share it with someone.

[Lepke]

Being a vet, most people I take are other vets. They at least have experience with following rules and duty. I take no one without a transition time at the dock. Rules and duties are comprehensively laid out at the beginning of any meeting. My boat, my rules. Nobody has to come.
The biggest problem I have had is finding people able to stand a deck watch. Old navy or CG prefered, some pilots, A-10 and helo seem to be the best. Most get bored and don't look out for debris in the water. On the West Coast we still have the junk from the Japanese tsunami, plus logs and some deck cargo debris. One lubber managed to hit a log he first saw several hundred yards away. Wives are the next biggest problem. Some are great addition to the crew and some come just to make sure their husband doesn't enjoy the trip. I make sure the bad ones never come back. No 2nd chances. Zero nagging policy.
I pay for all food and boat expenses unless they want something special to them alone. Because of the US drug policies, no illegal drugs on board. Each buys their own booze except for some stock items. No drinking for anyone running the boat unless anchored or docked. Kids only on day trips and then under absolute control.

[TheThunderbird]

I used FindACrew and Crew Seeker to get people from Brazil, Finland, US, Switzerland...

Although you spend hours chatting on Skype you can't apply the dock-test

I had people with clear signs of mental instability and bad judgement, not to say impoliteness and carelessness...

DH, I didn't ask for money just to avoid any co-ownership! The point is, people value their own time, agenda, personal fun ... More than their roles, duties, and boat needs.

I am still friend to people I sailed with 25 years ago, and dislike the idea of anyone who sailed with me this year just calling me...

I had persons so stupid to lament that " Malta is not like the tropics, missing the waterfalls and the coconuts "... Or unable to make yoga- stretching onboard... Or feeling " claustrophobic!!! " below deck after claiming 20months of navigation...

My major fault was to pretend little sailing duties, this turning already poor personalities into crappy idle argumenting people

A Brazilian girl with NO sailing experience turned out as the best companion, and she spent 30days with me. She just originated minor damages..

I Will Ask Any Future Crew To Browse This Post
I Will Ask Some Coverage for Expenses
I Will keep the Right To Call Off Crew Upon Some Well Communicated Situations

Thanks to All

[Pelagic]

I'm not sure if my "generalization" has validity in this discussion but...
...we cruising sailors tend to be more uncomfortable in social conditions than the average landlubber....

We like our privacy and enjoy the quietness on night watch for contemplation.

High energy, high maintenance crew, just wear me out and I'm sure they feel it.
Something to consider.

[Paul Elliott]

I just don't understand the "crew has to pay something so they have skin in the game" philosophy. If I asked a delivery skipper to deliver my boat somewhere, I would be paying the skipper and the skipper would probably be paying the crew. I've never heard of a delivery crew paying the skipper. When I am the skipper, I either pay the crew, or they agree to crew for free in return for experience, training, and sea-time.

When I am crewing on someone else's boat, I don't ask for money because I don't need it. But I am providing a service, and I have enough experience that payment would not be out of line. If my services are so valueless that I have to pay to crew, perhaps it's best for the skipper, me, and the boat that I sail elsewhere.

If crew are paying the skipper, or sharing expenses then I think they should have some say in where to go and how to sail the boat.

Yes, there are some "pay to play" crew opportunities, but these are usually for some extraordinary event like a big race around the world or something like that. Is your boat, or your itinerary, or perhaps your instructional skill so amazing that people should want to pay for the privilege of following your orders for a week or more?

If pay-to-play works for you and your crew, I have no problem with it. I just don't understand it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

I just don't understand the "crew has to pay something so they have skin in the game" philosophy. If I asked a delivery skipper to deliver my boat somewhere, I would be paying the skipper and the skipper would probably be paying the crew. I've never heard of a delivery crew paying the skipper. When I am the skipper, I either pay the crew, or they agree to crew for free in return for experience, training, and sea-time.

When I am crewing on someone else's boat, I don't ask for money because I don't need it. But I am providing a service, and I have enough experience that payment would not be out of line. If my services are so valueless that I have to pay to crew, perhaps it's best for the skipper, me, and the boat that I sail elsewhere.

If crew are paying the skipper, or sharing expenses then I think they should have some say in where to go and how to sail the boat.

Yes, there are some "pay to play" crew opportunities, but these are usually for some extraordinary event like a big race around the world or something like that. Is your boat, or your itinerary, or perhaps your instructional skill so amazing that people should want to pay for the privilege of following your orders for a week or more?

If pay-to-play works for you and your crew, I have no problem with it. I just don't understand it.

Payment may be symbolic more than anything, but it is meaningful.

If you are being paid for crewing, even a small amount, you are hired -- you are professional, you are a servant. That is one relationship. You are there to do what you are told. You have the right (like any employee) to expect certain normal conditions, but the main thing is you are supposed to deliver your labor. The primary expectation runs from you to the vessel.

If you are paying to be on a vessel (beyond sharing expenses), then you are a passenger. That's a different relationship. The main feature of it is that you are supposed to receive a service. The main expectation runs towards you, from the vessel. What it is, you want to do, is the main thing.

If you are sharing expenses, even symbolically (since food & fuel is a tiny part of the total cost), then you are a partner in the voyage, and expectations are mutual. You have a stake in the voyage, and your interests (stop in this port; spend some time doing x; whatever) have some status in the overall planning.

If no payments of any kind are made by anyone, then you are a guest. This is yet another kind of relationship. The expectation is that the host is interested in the relationship with you, and is providing hospitality primarily for the sake of your company, and for the future relationship. So, you should be charming. And of course, help out where you can too, just like you might offer to help with the dishes if you are invited to dinner in someone's home.


It may be different on what is explicitly a delivery, which is not a cruise. If a voyage is explicitly a delivery, then just being on the boat and getting some experience may be considered a kind of "payment". But it can't really work that way on a cruise, where the purpose of the voyage is pleasure, rather than getting the boat from A to B.

For a delivery, I would like to pay the crew, even if it's something symbolic, to make all this very clear.

For a cruise, I like for the crew to share the expenses, even symbolically. I find it helps to eliminate ambiguities about expectations.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Payment may be symbolic more than anything, but it is meaningful...

... For a delivery, I would like to pay the crew, even if it's something symbolic, to make all this very clear.

For a cruise, I like for the crew to share the expenses, even symbolically. I find it helps to eliminate ambiguities about expectations.

Well said!

[Sofie B]

Hey there, just a word or 2 and I agree with both Paul and Dockhead. In that I think it's sad that people are bloody selfish . If someone owns a boat, if someone else wants to be on it, peeps need to get with the program and have a face to face. Forget the rules and contracts but be well aware that there are a bunch of arseholes on this planet. Don't be fooled but if someone does con you to get on board , once you notice , tell them things need to change and you wont need them after the next port but seriously tell them, communicate, explain it hasn't worked out as planned. Use your voice. Why would anyone not voice an opinion if they are in a comfortable environment? If you want company ,everyone needs to be honest. Honesty tends to be your best policy. It's not about needing friends. It's just about a bit o' company that isn't stupid. Be honest about keeping safe. That must be in everyone's best interest. There is no beating around the bush.

[boatman61]

I tend to come at this from a different perspective.. the only time I sail with 'crew' as such is on deliveries where I have to put Insurance requirements ahead of personal preferences..
One thing I always make clear at the start is I am god.. I'm prepared to listen and am very flexible/laid back in my outlook but.. the final decision is mine.. this is not a Democracy.
With selection of crew experience is irrelevant.. I run the boat the same as I would if solo.. the only set task required from the crew/owner is 4 hours watch keeping at night.. even I need some sleep.. the rest of the time is theirs to do as they please.. sleep, eat, read, avoid pissing me off.. and help with things I may struggle with alone.. managing hauling down a 62ftrs genoa mid ocean is easier with 1 or 2 extra hands..
In general this works pretty well and folks who've sailed with me are generally happy to repeat the experience.
I've only had to 'sack' one crew and that was for trying to sow discord by trying to turn me against the other crew member.. and only had one owner do a runner.. he was a total anus who was scared of the ocean crossing and became convinced I was going to throw him overboard between where he flew out to join the boat at Samoa and Darwin.. so we detoured to Vanuatu where he moved to a hotel within 1/2 hour of arrival..
I cover travel to and from the boat and food for the trip for my crew, subject to them completing the contract.. if they break the contract by leaving early.. they pay their own way home.
On my own boat.. I expect nothing from my guests.. if they fancy helping out with cooking, shopping etc great.. however I expect the same courtesy in my home as I would give them in theirs.. start re-arranging my ****.. you'll cop ****.. I like my boat as it is so its my way or the highway.

[Sofie B]

I just mean, say what you want on the first meet, say how you feel during the journey, change things if and when you can. It's YOUR boat!! All you people, you went out and got a boat that you have decided you are ready to take charge on the ocean with. You are prepared to sacrifice yourself on or feel confident to give it a go. You understand the difference to land . The different dimension of liquid to solid. I really don't see the issue with letting some people come along for the ride. It's not that hard to figure out. You don't need permission to be yourself in your own space, you just gotta be.

[Sofie B]

Originally Posted by boatman61

On my own boat.. I expect nothing from my guests.. if they fancy helping out with cooking, shopping etc great.. however I expect the same courtesy in my home as I would give them in theirs.. start re-arranging my ****.. you'll cop ****.. I like my boat as it is so its my way or the highway.

We were discussing exactly this tonight. (daylight savings kicks in at 2am, 1.59 now) We have that attitude as well and neither of us have any problem with opening our mouths. I would never expect that which I do not ask for. I would also tell someone if they pissed me off. But I don't hold grudges and I wont go to bed without sorting any disputes. Disagreement doesn't have to be disengagement. Thing is they may not like you afterwards, ....pftt! Sorted at the next port then eh?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Easier said than done unless you're several days away from land and one of your guests has an alcohol or psychiatric meltdown. What are going to do, throw them overboard.

Obviously... you've never been placing in this sort of situation. Some people go absolutely nuts when the land goes out of sight.

Turn back and drop them off.. Good Decision..
Keep going and subject them to further terror and everyone else to the aggravation and stress.. Bad Decision..
Each skipper is different.. and how they deal with these things is as varied as there are types of boats.
But.. look on the bright side Kenomac.. your in the Med.. its now impossible to be 'several days from land'..

[Sofie B]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Easier said than done unless you're several days away from land and one of your guests has an alcohol or psychiatric meltdown. What are going to do, throw them overboard.

Obviously... you've never been placing in this sort of situation. Some people go absolutely nuts when the land goes out of sight.

I always sleep with one of these (pictured) right next to me for a variety of reasons. On one occasion, the only way I was able maintain order with a drunken ahole onboard was that he thought I was nuts when he saw the knife.

I agreee I haven't but i'm quite good at seeing oddness and overboard?... your choice , just remember there is always consequences
I agree tho' alcohol can create many different situations but amongst it all you still are in charge of your boat and you need to step up on behalf of everyone. Sometimes that may require you to try to diffuse the situation. I'd classify it as first aid. Hey nobody said life was easy. It is what it is. One should always remember to stand tall. And ... please take care!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Sofie B

I agreee I haven't but i'm quite good at seeing oddness and overboard?... your choice , just remember there is always consequences
I agree tho' alcohol can create many different situations but amongst it all you still are in charge of your boat and you need to step up on behalf of everyone. Sometimes that may require you to try to diffuse the situation. I'd classify it as first aid. Hey nobody said life was easy. It is what it is. One should always remember to stand tall. And ... please take care!

First aid??

You can't put a bandaid on an xxxxx.

[Sofie B]

In all reality, if someone turns out or becomes mentally unstable , the issue is no longer about you. You then have a responsibility to a sick person. You then need to figure that out first. It is for the safety of all on board, seriously.