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Old 09-08-2022, 11:09   #106
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
I disagree about the need for LiFePo batteries.


Lithium has several advantages, but don’t be put off trying electric cooking if you only have a lead acid system (providing it is well engineered). We run with electric cooking (most of the time) without any problems on lead acid.

The biggest issue is power generation, not battery technology.

You need to produce significant amounts of power to sustain the power draw. Unless you are prepared to use a generator, or call into marinas frequently (yuk) this means a large solar array and even then you are limited to cruising areas with at least reasonable solar insolation.

I would encourage people not to ditch the propane until they are sure they have sufficient power generation in their current and future cruising areas.

It is a shame to have a boat capable of taking you anywhere apart from one system that limits your travel to particular areas and seasons. You should be able to make cruising plans that are written in sand at low tide.
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Old 09-08-2022, 12:01   #107
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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I would encourage people not to ditch the propane until they are sure they have sufficient power generation in their current and future cruising areas.
We have a single-burner alcohol stove as a backup for when we can’t get propane. Even if we went electric, we’d keep that around. It is also nice in that you can move it to different places - to the cockpit, to a beach. Recently on a calm day we cooked lunch in the cockpit while offshore.

And it is a lot simpler backup than a full propane system with vented lockers, piping, shutdown solenoids, gas alarms, biennial inspections, etc.
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Old 09-08-2022, 12:11   #108
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

Many people hate alcohol stoves, but personally I have fond memories of the unit on our first yacht. It would be a good backup, for short term use, but they do burn a reasonable amount of alcohol and it can be a very difficult fuel to source in some countries.

It would not be ideal if you entered a cruising area or season where solar insolation was poor and this method of cooking was needed frequently for an extended period of time.
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Old 09-08-2022, 12:21   #109
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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It would be a good backup, for short term use, but they do burn a reasonable amount of alcohol and it can be a very difficult fuel to source in some countries.
An Origo (or clone) burns about 2.6dl per hour, so a litre bottle of denatured alcohol is good for 4h of the stove going at full blast. That’s a few meals per bottle, easily. We have enough for maybe a month on board.

Now, to be honest, I’ve only had to procure denatured alcohol in a couple of countries, but it seems to be something every hardware or camping store carries.

In a pinch the Origo would likely work fine with any reasonably strong booze. Though I suppose that could be considered alcohol abuse
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Old 09-08-2022, 12:42   #110
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I can run the numbers are see electric cooktops are possible but how can people support electric ovens often needing 1-2 hours of operation.
That's a problem we can't easily solve on a small yacht. The Ninja Air Fryer would take what, 90 minutes to roast a small chicken? We did look at a suitable convention oven which would fit in below the gas hob, but it was 1500w as well.

The solution is a Remoska which for the Grand size is 580w. Now that will roast, make cakes and pizza and much more suitable for a smaller yacht, if you can find somewhere to store it.

https://www.lakeland.co.uk/31946/gra...ails-accordion

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Hey Pete, you didn’t react to my post with all the measurements?

As you can see, your unit has only 5 real power levels and 3 pulsed for 8 total. Yes this reduces abilities and I can see how users find that gas a more precise control.
Nick, we haven't found any limits so far, altering the power setting say when bring pasta to the boil and then you want to simmer, turning down the power is instant as I am sure you have found.

Running a single hob can be limiting, but we cook two omelettes separately. Steaks will go in one pan. One cheat has have just read about is cooking potatoes. Bring to boil in a pan as normal and pour into a wide mouthed vacuum flask and leave for twice the time you might boil. Instant cooked potatoes for serving or mashing whilst you use the single hob to cook the main ingredients.

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Old 09-08-2022, 16:02   #111
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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I disagree about the need for LiFePo batteries. Running 2 burners and a convection oven is about 3600W. At 90% inverter efficiency that’s 4,000W which draws 333amps at 12v. To me that means I would want 400Ahr of LFP or 700Ahr of FLAs.

The FLA batteries will be cheaper up front and cheaper on a per Whr delivered basis but will be heavier and take up more space. Also the FLAs don’t need BMSs which is a point of failure for LFP.

Personally I would get LFPs because I want to also do electric propulsion and the space/weight issues become more important when talking about 12-16 batteries.

Something you failed to mention is that the inverter needs to be pure sine wave, some induction burners will work with modified sine but don’t like, many won’t work at all.
My list was not for minimum requirements for an electric galley, but points that all make a big step forward. When you replace your lead acid bank with lfp your face will be smiling when you wake up the next morning, the difference is that big.

For true sine you are correct; I did not consider that modified sine would still be sold. Avoid those seller like the plague
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Old 09-08-2022, 16:11   #112
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Originally Posted by SV Jabberwock View Post
Genuinely curious what would require two hobs at full power. Am I missing out on some delicious recipes?

I've cooked with gas on board for a long, long time. On land with shitty classic electric cooktops, slightly better ceran cooktops, and also induction.
I may miss the third hob (or fourth) sometimes, although rarely, but I don't remember ever having more than one of them at full power (on land or water). Usually for bringing water to a boil and then that gets dialled down as well.

In the last two years with induction on the boat, I've never felt any more limited compared to the gas cooktop I had before.

Would you need two fully powered hobs for lots of steaks? Two pots of pasta?
Old fashioned meals: one pot for boiling potatoes, another one for cauliflower and a third for the meatballs. You fill two pots with water and potatoes, cauliflower and put both on burners at full power to bring them to a boil. Then the 3rd one for browning the meatballs. When everything boils and is browned, you start dialing back but you did use three at full power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I can run the numbers are see electric cooktops are possible but how can people support electric ovens often needing 1-2 hours of operation.
We use our Breville convection oven with air fryer all the time, like for baking bread rolls, pizza, casseroles etc. They are actually very energy efficient. The 1500W rating you see is maximum power use, not continuous. When the oven has preheated, the thermostat regulates/reduces power.

We often have induction + convection + microwave + coffeemaker going. This was impossible even with our 1800Ah lead acid bank as voltage would drop through the floor, but with lfp at 24V it is peanuts. And that’s with just 400Ah at 24V.

The list I posted above just enables all this, powered by the sun.
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Old 09-08-2022, 19:35   #113
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I can run the numbers are see electric cooktops are possible but how can people support electric ovens often needing 1-2 hours of operation.
With ovens there is an initial high demand preheating everything to the target temp, then demand decreases significantly as energy is just used to maintain temp as heat in the oven seeps out into the environment and seeps into the food to cook it. The question is how much energy is used to maintain temp. I don't currently know.

I have a testing program planned for a convection oven like I did with induction cooktops but since we just dropped a bunch of kilo-bucks on a house addition and we already have a toaster oven, I'm holding off for another 6-12mo lest the admiral have it out with me. I will get one sometime after Xmas and will be posting results.

For various first principle reasons I believe that a convection oven will have a similar efficiency advantage over propane as induction did. I won't know for sure until I do the testing.
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Old 09-08-2022, 19:55   #114
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Nick, we haven't found any limits so far, altering the power setting say when bring pasta to the boil and then you want to simmer, turning down the power is instant as I am sure you have found.

Running a single hob can be limiting, but we cook two omelettes separately. Steaks will go in one pan. One cheat has have just read about is cooking potatoes. Bring to boil in a pan as normal and pour into a wide mouthed vacuum flask and leave for twice the time you might boil. Instant cooked potatoes for serving or mashing whilst you use the single hob to cook the main ingredients.

Pete
What I meant was your report of your unit pulsing and my measurements showing the number of real power levels and how the pulsing works. Also, the info about your induction unit I got from it’s manual
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Old 10-08-2022, 01:50   #115
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Old fashioned meals: one pot for boiling potatoes, another one for cauliflower and a third for the meatballs. You fill two pots with water and potatoes, cauliflower and put both on burners at full power to bring them to a boil. Then the 3rd one for browning the meatballs. When everything boils and is browned, you start dialing back but you did use three at full power.
Oh, yeah. That makes sense. Don't think I've had boiled veggies since I was a little kid. Guess I'm lucky that my cooking habits and galley are compatible
Goes to show that you have to take your individual needs / habits into consideration when planning a galley overhaul. As well as how important it is to not just look at the figures when talking about everyone else's experiences, but also what their habits are.
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Old 10-08-2022, 06:08   #116
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Oh, yeah. That makes sense. Don't think I've had boiled veggies since I was a little kid. Guess I'm lucky that my cooking habits and galley are compatible
Goes to show that you have to take your individual needs / habits into consideration when planning a galley overhaul. As well as how important it is to not just look at the figures when talking about everyone else's experiences, but also what their habits are.
This is the reason that most cooktops have 4 burners… newest generations need none, just a kettle for instant ramen and a microwave lol
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Old 10-08-2022, 07:37   #117
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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This is the reason that most cooktops have 4 burners… newest generations need none, just a kettle for instant ramen and a microwave lol
And for the hot water for the French press gotta have my coffee so others may survive
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Old 10-08-2022, 11:42   #118
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

As an aside , for boaters who have RCD ( CE) certified boats , lithium installs and full galley conversions to electricity , where gas was originally supplied with the boat constitute a “ major craft modification” and as a result the boat must be recertified using the post construction certification process. This is not cheap.

This is especially true if the work is done professionally as there is a legal responsibility for the installer to ensure the craft is re certified

This may not raise its head until a sale etc , certainly , i as a buyer , seeing a galley conversion and including a lithium batteries install would insist on a CE certification process as I inherit the liability potentially. Equally the need to inform your insurer exists and they may insist on recertification
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Old 10-08-2022, 11:54   #119
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
As an aside , for boaters who have RCD ( CE) certified boats , lithium installs and full galley conversions to electricity , where gas was originally supplied with the boat constitute a “ major craft modification” and as a result the boat must be recertified using the post construction certification process. This is not cheap.

This is especially true if the work is done professionally as there is a legal responsibility for the installer to ensure the craft is re certified

This may not raise its head until a sale etc , certainly , i as a buyer , seeing a galley conversion and including a lithium batteries install would insist on a CE certification process as I inherit the liability potentially. Equally the need to inform your insurer exists and they may insist on recertification
Good thing mine was built in '79

(CE certification is not required for boats built before June 16 1998)
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Old 10-08-2022, 12:03   #120
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Re: Gas v Electric Galley

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Good thing mine was built in '79

(CE certification is not required for boats built before June 16 1998)
Sorry it is if a subsequent “ major craft modification “ is performed since 1998. That’s irrespective of year built
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