Liveaboards at the gate

[fxarcher]

The way things are shaping up, I actually foresee a possible future where any type of boating/cruising will be outlawed in the name of security.
One does not have to look too far.
I remember when I was building boats in the eighties in Taiwan, any type of sea trial was not allowed due to security concerns. Probably justifiably so. Don't know how it is today.
I'm am not sure how much yachting there is for the average Chinese citizen.
Think about how much simpler it would be to control and secure your territory without having to contend with a part of the public moving around in an uncontrolled manner.
One edict from the top will be all it takes.
In this country, if one 911 equivalent is directly tied to the free movement of pleasure boats, then look out.
In other, already totalitarian countries, it will take much less in the name of expanding already draconian public security laws.
It will be done for the Children of course!
None of this however will stop the ruling class from enjoying their superyachts.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Some human behavioural studies have found that wealthy people tend to be more selfish, entitled, and generally less empathetic. Work by Dan Ariely, Dacher Keltner and Paul Piff come to mind. Here's one discussion paper posted at the World Economic Forum (so not some commie-pinko perspective):

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...s-explain-why/

But did they establish which was the cause, which the effect, or if there was a causal relationship at all? Maybe that’s how you become wealthy.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Harv1941

Well Mike, never said anything about being on your own hook in APPROPRIATE locales.
Being on the hook and swinging about near to other folks very expensive boats/yachts is NOT okay.

(Note: It's hard to read all-bold Harv. Unless your intention is to yell...)

I don't know what this has to do with anything. Boats of all values swing near to each other all the time. It's called an anchorage. I recommend you should try it sometime. It's a lot of fun.

Originally Posted by Harv1941

I don't anchor simply because I don't like that method of overnighting. Prefer the access to facilities, showers ...

All good -- for you. But your sentence suggests you think people shouldn't anchor out:

So, I can certainly understand the aggravation by some folks and commercial marinas when some entitled yachtsman decides to drop hook OR [my emphasis added] tie up without permission or payment of fee.

Again, there's nothing wrong with dropping a hook in an appropriate location. And sometimes that location is well within view of landlubbers, and has you swinging near other people's boats (expensive or not).

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

But did they establish which was the cause, which the effect, or if there was a causal relationship at all? Maybe that’s how you become wealthy.

Actually, they did. You should read some of the experiments and the outcomes. It should give all of us pause, given that we're all relatively wealthy, especially when visiting lesser-developed countries or regions.

[capn_billl]

The State of Florida does NOT adequately enforce registration laws as the floating derelict cities AKA waterworld attest.

Last week one of these floating wrecks with a broken mast that hasn't moved in over the 6 months I watched it, broke loose, and came within 5 ft of crashing into MY boat tied to a paid dock.

These same floating wrecks yelled at me for trying to anchor any where near (at least 10 boat lengths, I wanted as far away as possible myself).

I felt bad until I saw them screaming at each other with law enforcement called in several times.

Several are half, (or all) sunk, and NONE of them have any observed markings, or current registration stickers.

I'm not trying to be an elitist here, and I'm the last person to call out for more taxes, but tell me the difference between this, and living in an abandoned van on blocks in the back of a public park?

There have been several laws proposed to fix this, but they all seem to want to ban recreational boating altogether instead of fixing a specific problem.

I've boated up, and down the Gulf coast, but I've only seen thing this bad in Florida.

SO the other States haave a solution.

One solution is in Texas, you can be ticketed on the boat ramp, or trailering down the road, and definitely when anchored in Texas waters.

You can be ticketed for dumping, or littering, and they can drop dye tabs in your tank.

The only anchored "liveaboards" on the Texas coast are transient cruisers that cause little issue, and usually spend at least some time at a paid marina.

So why can't Florida pass a common sense law that bans being a public menace without trying to ban anchoring completely?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I'm all for user fees instead of general (and less than transparent) taxation. Those with school aged children should be paying for schools. Those with vehicles should be paying for road maintenance. And those with boats should be paying for marine based services. No one should be paying for services or goods they are not using. At least directly.

Yes, and each of these services would have to be put on a cost plus basis, the fees would cover the cost of the service.

Ah Ha! Then they could privatize them all and we could do away with government.

Oh! what about the military? No problem, privatize that too, we're well on the way with contractors and mercenaries already.

But, but, but... who would take on the business of providing for food stamps and welfare and other services for which the user cannot pay? Freeloaders! I worked my way up, why don't they?

And parks? Privatize them or sell them, most would bring a high price for locations for nice homes.

What about EPA and SEC and other regulatory agencies? Kill them, let people be free.

The Coast Guard (this is a boating forum)? people can call vessel towing services. Drug interdiction is unnecessary

In fact we don't need no stinking government.

[Kd9truck]

My vessel sits on a mooring in front of some very expensive real estate on the north shore of LI with over 200 vessels all doing the same thing. There are several areas that are very good anchorage locations and during the season these anchorages are never unoccupied. The transients drop hook for free or pay for a mooring and it’s launch services.

Everybody gets along

No year round live aboards because all moorings are pulled for the winter as per DEC guidelines. The water is full of life and it is a truly healthy marine environment because of these regulations.
Some live aboards, some boat owners are cheep, sailboat owners are known for there frugality, some actually pride themselves on it. It is usually very evident they are cheap by the condition of there vessels. These cheap boaters give the rest of us a bad reputation.
As for the land owners, the US coastline is free to access up to the high tide line for everybody, there are some exceptions but nobody owns the water rights in front of there house. If they give you a hard time hang the laundry out to dry, an interesting fun fact underwear always dries faster placed on the shore side.
Slip blockers tend to move when fish and birds are found on there deck, or when they are down wind of a smoking diesel or…. When a generator that cycles on at 330 AM, or when the CG shows up to search the vessel for illegal guns from an anonymous tip, or so I have herd.

Not as many homeless on junk vessels in areas where things freeze (the north east) not like the west coast. One reason is because of the cold.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Harv1941

...Time for yachtmen/women to stop being dorks and return to the old ways...

The old ways? Like when use of navigable waterways could not by federal law be restricted? (oh, that's still true)

Or when boats/ships were anchored in every port?

You mean before wealthy people appropriated the waterfront and preferred to exclude people of lesser means from obstruction of their views?

People (boats) should be allowed to use and anchor in navigable waterways. Those waterways belong to everyone, not just wealthy people.

That does not mean without reasonable regulation.

• Boat must be navigable itself, licensed, be inspected regularly, and meet coast guard regulations
• Anti-pollution requirements included!
• Time limits can be applied for anchoring
• Anchored vessels may be restricted to areas which do not block channels used by other vessels for transiting
• Owners of anchored and transiting vessels must respect property rights of others, and pay for services such as water and garbage (as used)

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Kd9truck

...Not as many homeless on junk vessels in areas where things freeze (the north east) not like the west coast. One reason is because of the cold.

People living on vessels junk or otherwise, are not homeless.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by wingssail

People living on vessels junk or otherwise, are not homeless.

Neither is the druggie living in a tent in a children's park. technically.

[Dsanduril]

And a fair few of the ships shown in that picture probably ended up adrift, derelict, and abandoned, eventually washing ashore in SF where some parts were used in construction of the city and other parts sunk into the mud to be found by construction crews a century later. In the intermediate time they served as flop houses for people with no other place to go. Some things never change.

[HeinSdL]

In the meantime, back in the Med, the air (or is it water) is also getting thin. There's no money in simple cruising folk like most of us dropping their anchor here and there. The money is obviously in the ultra high net worth.

They get access to the private buoys placed in the best spots around Sardinia as well as the private quays found in all the pretty seaside towns in mainland Italy; and when it comes to winter storage, well in Genoa they'd much rather have one super yacht in for service than 100 plastic tubs sitting there making it all look messy (also too messy especially in the eyes of the UHNW super yacht owner, "what's that garbage surrounding my boat?"). So whereas I used to be in the company of countless fellow 40-foot-or-so yachts, now lack of space dictates only a few of us left and the massive hangars containing the cash spitting true jewels (in the eyes of the service providers) continue to proliferate.

The message is becoming louder: take your plastic tub and pathetic wallet elsewhere.

Edit: I highlight private above which may indicate I don't agree with private marinas etc, It's not that, it's just that I have been sent away on numerous occasions from said facilities with the simple reason 'Privato!'. In other words 'These facilities are not intended for boaters such as you! Please leave'.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by wingssail

That does not mean without reasonable regulation.
[*]Boat must be navigable itself, licensed, be inspected regularly, and meet coast guard regulations

What does "navigable" mean? If this means it moved 5 miles every 30 days then it must apply to all boats in every marina in every month of the year. How can you prove/enforce this? It is wrong discriminate against boats anchored.

So if 5 boats are anchored, and 50 boats in a marina, they must inspect 10 boats in the marina for every boat anchored. The owner must prove it can navigate. If the owner is not available, the marina staff can take the boat and move it 5 miles to another marina for 30 days and the owner charged for such service. Even in January, even if it is below freezing. Otherwise we leave the anchored boats alone to be fair.

[*]Anti-pollution requirements included!

What does this mean? It means no internal combustion engines I presume, because these tend to leave an oil slick whenever they pump the bilge. I see this often. How will you enforce it?

Or do you mean regulations that have little/nothing to do with the environment but raise the barrier making it easier for rich people and harder for everyone else?

[*]Time limits can be applied for anchoring

Time is relative. It is immoral to put a time limit on anchoring without the same limit imposed on boats in marinas and moorings. If the owner is not available the marina staff can haul the boat and store it on the hard at the owners expense if they exceed the time limit. Or we could not have any time limits which is also fair.

[*]Anchored vessels may be restricted to areas which do not block channels used by other vessels for transiting

As long as no marina is built in a place where boats previously used to anchor, and no moorings put in any place marked as special anchorages. For example, the special anchorage in boston: all moorings must be removed.

Originally Posted by wingssail

[*]Owners of anchored and transiting vessels must respect property rights of others, and pay for services such as water and garbage (as used)

Water is a basic right. It is immoral to charge for it unless it is in excess of 10 liters per day per person. Unless there is a water shortage and no one has access to water regardless of wealth.

Charging for garbage is a bad idea because it encourages people to dump the trash which is really easy to get away with. Making it free ensures most people will attempt to dispose of it responsibly.

It makes more sense to charge grocery stores and all other stores a tax for each product based on the weight of the item to cover disposal fees. For example mushrooms wrapped in shrink wrap would have to pay for the weight of the plastic wrap, not the weight of the mushroom, but a plastic box would be charged based on total weight. This tax (collected alongside sales tax) would cover garbage collection and apply to all products bought.

[capn_billl]

Marinas DEFINATELY enforce the "must be navigable" rule where I'm at. If the dock master hasn't seen your boat leave the marina in a couple months, he can demand you start the engines, or be in violation of lease.

"no internal combustion engines", Don't give them any ideas. We are already required to not have any oil in bilge. An oil absorbent pad must be used anytime engine bilge is run, and any oil leaking into the bilge requires the bilge pump to be disabled until the oil leak is fixed, and any remaining oil removed. producing an oil slick from the bilge can result in a hefty fine.

Quote:[*]Time limits can be applied for anchoring
Time is relative. It is immoral to put a time limit on anchoring without the same limit imposed on boats in marinas and moorings. If the owner is not available the marina staff can haul the boat and store it on the hard at the owners expense if they exceed the time limit. Or we could not have any time limits which is also fair.

I just hope you have the same lackadaisical attitude when I park a semi blocking your driveway indefinitely.

Marinas, and mooring DO require leases, and have strict time limits you PAY for. There is limited anchoring spots, and an unlimited number of boats. It makes sense to force boat owners to take turns, otherwise the shared resources are dominated by the most belligerent, and most selfish.

Quote:[*]Anchored vessels may be restricted to areas which do not block channels used by other vessels for transiting
As long as no marina is built in a place where boats previously used to anchor, and no moorings put in any place marked as special anchorages. For example, the special anchorage in boston: all moorings must be removed.

I have mixed feeling about mooring fields, but in crowded anchorages with derelicts slowly sinking in place in one of the few desirable destinations that hundreds of boats want to anchor at, they are a necessary evil.

A mooring field provides a safe place to tie up with anchored boats evenly spaced, and no danger of dragging into neighbors. It also pays for a dinghy dock, maintenance, water patrol, garbage, and sewage services, and keeps boat bums from tying up a limited public resource indefinitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingssail View Post[*]Owners of anchored and transiting vessels must respect property rights of others, and pay for services such as water and garbage (as used)
Water is a basic right.

Sure it is, feel free to fill up your bucket from ANY public water source. OH you want it purified, sanitized, chlorinated, and piped in a sanitary fashion to your boat in a convenient fashion. THAT'S not free. PIPES cost money, so do water treatment plants.

You want to drink from a creek? GO for it. Want purified water from a city, or Marina system? You are either paying, or you are STEALING what someone ELSE paid for.

TRY to get free water in the BAHAMAS, or ANY other third world country, or most countries for that matter. In some places clean sanitized water costs more than fuel.

Charging for garbage is a bad idea, I can agree with this. Adding a deposit to ALL non biodegradable products like plastics works for me. Until then it costs the dumpster owner money to haul it to the dump, so picking up part of this cost is basic adulting.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Elleroo

Live aboards don't have sewers, don't have garbage collection, don't have any utilities.


So, should they pay property taxes?

Unless they are dumping their garbage and sewerage overboard, they certainly do have sewers and garbage collection.

In addition, they are served by police, fire and rescue services.