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Old 26-02-2019, 09:54   #46
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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Probably both causes, and many many more. Human social change is always complex and multi-faceted. Technology and the availability of newer entertainment options is certainly one factor (or many). Basic economics, and the shifting dynamics of work, are another.

Mike, good points. as far as new technology/entertainment goes, i'm tempted to venture out on a limb here... it is going to sound very reductionist because i am just formulating.

i have noted it as well: there is a big difference in the kinds of experiences the different generations enjoy. part of it may be that young people do value comfort more than others, but there is another factor that i'd like to point to.

imagine two basic groups: the pre-screen group and post-screen group. those who are 50+ had television at some moment in their lives but interactive screens came much later. those born about or after 1970 were the first to play table tennis on the screen at home*.

of the pre-screen group, i see another breakdown: those who like to ride on the edge (this thread is interesting in how it has revealed a common interest in things that go: planes, trains, motorcycles and sailboats) and those who like to sit in the middle. for example, i'm definitely a moth on a porch light, yet my sis needs the security of a home and will garden and work hard to care for and embellish that home.

i'm thinking out loud here (so please be kind), but i'm tempted to say that we, as fellow moths on a porch light, are generally wired so that we get adrenaline from physical sensations while those who were raised with interactive screens, and especially today's teenagers, are generally wired to get adrenaline from a mentally formulated experience.

repeating myself here but:

as we zoom about mountain passages on a motorbike, heel with our sailboats, and feel the lift in our little airplanes, we get adrenaline from direct contact with the skin, with the body, by contact with the elements.

with young folks, especially those who cannot go without interactive screens, the body is all but asleep. the sensations are happening inside of their brains without much help of most of their senses, yet they still get the adrenaline feed.

and this is how, while we travel and explore and learn, lots of young folks go wi-fi hopping...?


if what i've written isn't completely off the mark, then can we say that the big difference is how we are not getting our drug (adrenaline) from the same type of source?




*those of you born after 1970, i am curious to know if you did or didn't get into this type of interactive screen play or is you were doing other things... my bet is on other things, but it would be interesting to know either way.
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Old 26-02-2019, 10:26   #47
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

The post 1970 idea is interesting, I would probably bump that up even further, maybe the year 2000 when cell phones and ipads became mainstream. My kids are lazy these days, no interest in sailing or motorcycles. They sit at home playing video games and I have to struggle to get them to come outside for a walk with the dog without some kind of bribe. When I was a kid, we spent all day, every day, outside.
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Old 26-02-2019, 10:48   #48
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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That seems to be true too! Since buying my boat and joining this and other sailing forums, I've found there to be quite a bit of crossover interest & background between flying, sailing & motorcycling. Or some combo thereof...
Yep, guilty... and in our DIY marina, those similarities are noticeable as well (not dominant, but not unusual either...).
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Old 26-02-2019, 10:55   #49
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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There are lots of reasons sailing fails...
- Do you follow your heart (sailing around the world, so glamorous, so free), or follow your brain (too expensive, major money sink, does it get boring sailing between moorings, is it affordable).
I think much of your list is quite true -- but to twist your words a little; isn't adventure when your heart drags your brain to a place it wasn't sure it wanted to go...
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Old 26-02-2019, 11:09   #50
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

All good points wolfgal, especially this:

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as we zoom about mountain passages on a motorbike, heel with our sailboats, and feel the lift in our little airplanes, we get adrenaline from direct contact with the skin, with the body, by contact with the elements.

with young folks, especially those who cannot go without interactive screens, the body is all but asleep. the sensations are happening inside of their brains without much help of most of their senses, yet they still get the adrenaline feed.
And while it's certainly true that a big part of the attraction is our physical contact with the elements, for me and many other cruisers I bet it's mainly the mental stimulation that comes from how the element of adventure stimulates our imaginations. So while younger folks might get a comparable adrenaline feed from their interactive screens, it's hard to imagine it's as durable, healthy or ultimately satisfying. Then again, maybe it's all part of the human evolutionary process where the brain (though not necessarily smarts ) is becoming increasingly dominant.
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Old 26-02-2019, 16:27   #51
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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...i have noted it as well: there is a big difference in the kinds of experiences the different generations enjoy. part of it may be that young people do value comfort more than others, but there is another factor that i'd like to point to.
Interesting thoughts Wolf. As far as younger generations valuing comfort more than older, I think it’s always been this way. In our western developed countries each successive generation has been wealthier and lived more comfortable lives. Our parents and grandparents complained about how soft and lazy we are, and we in turn complain about “the kids today!” I think the ‘kids today’ are just part of this continuum.

That said, it will be interesting to see what follows. The Millennial generation is the first generation where we will see real wealth decreases compared to their parents. Maybe this explains, in part, the huge increase in mental disorders we’re seeing in the younger generations.

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...with young folks, especially those who cannot go without interactive screens, the body is all but asleep. the sensations are happening inside of their brains without much help of most of their senses, yet they still get the adrenaline feed.
I’m not sure if this is directly relevant, but there have been many neurological research projects looking at how the brain responds to different stimuli. In many experiments comparing real activities to simulated ones, the brain activity often looks very similar, if not identical.

So I bet you can generate similar neurological effects using screens as compared to actually being out there in the physical world. And as AI and virtual reality advance, the line between what is actually real, and what is virtually real, will blur even more.

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and this is how, while we travel and explore and learn, lots of young folks go wi-fi hopping...?
It’s true that 'the kids today’ need to be plugged in and online all the time. But I would suggest it’s not just the kids. How many of us are ever away from an Internet connect for very long? How many of us have our iThings constantly within easy reach. Given that we’re talking on an online forum, I bet not many of us.
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Old 26-02-2019, 16:45   #52
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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The post 1970 idea is interesting, I would probably bump that up even further, maybe the year 2000 when cell phones and ipads became mainstream. My kids are lazy these days, no interest in sailing or motorcycles. They sit at home playing video games and I have to struggle to get them to come outside for a walk with the dog without some kind of bribe. When I was a kid, we spent all day, every day, outside.
It's not just kids, the phenom is equally spread amongst all age groups these days.
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Old 27-02-2019, 06:03   #53
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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So I bet you can generate similar neurological effects using screens as compared to actually being out there in the physical world. And as AI and virtual reality advance, the line between what is actually real, and what is virtually real, will blur even more.


It’s true that 'the kids today’ need to be plugged in and online all the time. But I would suggest it’s not just the kids. How many of us are ever away from an Internet connect for very long? How many of us have our iThings constantly within easy reach. Given that we’re talking on an online forum, I bet not many of us.


Mike, you have a point about the level of comfort having gone up with each successive generation (so far...); though my feeling is that comfort is mostly something that one generation attempts to provide and secure for the next until the next can secure it for itself and its offspring. afterall, doesn't the providing-a-better-life-for-our-kids instinct seem to manifest itself primarily through the transfer of an attained level of comfort?

and yes, it could also be that, that with the overall socio-economic conditions today, securing even an equal comfort for one self and one's offspring may be less and less possible.

but getting back to the heart of it, more and more i am convinced that we can generate similar neurological effects using screens as compared to actually being out there in the physical world.

take us, we are doing this, here, together on CF. with our connection to the internet, we are collectively generating a feeling of community, while satisfying an individual need for community. the give and take of our interactions allow us to do this. the fact that we write, that each of us has a way of writing, of responding as very different individuals contributes to the strength of this community.*

maybe this is just me, but i think it is fairly safe to say that we are those who'd really enjoy having the opportunity to talk and discuss in a café with folks in the real, IF there were cafés filled with sailing and boat addicts around.

however, being somewhat isolated (from cafés filled with folks talking about boats) does seem to be the norm: many are alone on their boats at length, whether anchored out or at the dock; many are at home wishing for spring to come; many are in yards where there are just a few faces to see (and who speak different languages); many have spouses/families that refuse to partake or jobs that keep them from having the time; some have physical disabilities and cannot actually get out on the boat anymore..., while others are landlocked in some way and are surrounding themselves with the world of cruising in ways they can.

we share technical knowledge and perspectives and make observations and reveal personal truths and debate. even though every so often, things degenerate, overall there is a feeling of community that comes about as we read and engage in one another opinions and posts. (as a side thought, if we did get together, we may have to keep the environmentalists on one side of the room and the earth-is-fine group on the other, but at least we don't have anyone who believes the world is flat!)



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It's not just kids, the phenom is equally spread amongst all age groups these days.
true, yet, for me the difference comes through what one gets back from this addiction. when we use a keyboard and formulate thoughts, when we read to understand and learn, when we encourage, explain and guide..., we are engaging, giving and receiving. and most of the time, we feel responsible for what we say.

contrastingly, what needs of a person are being met by playing war games and those games that test one's response time? i can only wonder. i see these internet interactions as hyper-stimulation (dopamine) sources that, overall, do not require making an effort to formulate, to be coherent, to learn. These are without the growth and without a trace of what has been lived... this goes a bit over the edge to say this, but these games really seem to be wiring people into a world without responsibility and consequences.


Exile, you bring up good points here...

"for me and many other cruisers I bet it's mainly the mental stimulation that comes from how the element of adventure stimulates our imaginations. So while younger folks might get a comparable adrenaline feed from their interactive screens, it's hard to imagine it's as durable, healthy or ultimately satisfying. Then again, maybe it's all part of the human evolutionary process where the brain (though not necessarily smarts ) is becoming increasingly dominant."

Imagination. Over the ages, there have been those thinkers who attempted to map out utopias, perfect societies. Not all were good, not all worked, but the minds of these people and their ideas have shaped our societies in one way or another. Are game-players doing this, are they thinking about things, attempting to find solutions to problems they see in the real world? ... i cannily hope that are ...

In a way, Exile, your comment also supports what Mike mentioned, about how there is a rise in mental disorders....

i do wonder what happens to mental (not to mention physical) health when real experiences are not lived...

Buzycan says something i hear so many parents say when he says,

My kids are lazy these days, no interest in sailing or motorcycles. They sit at home playing video games and I have to struggle to get them to come outside for a walk with the dog without some kind of bribe. When I was a kid, we spent all day, every day, outside.


when i think to long about all this, when i think about how it is likely that humans will increasingly compete with AI, i imagine that the future will be very different from today, with lots of and lots of useless people (the majority) who subsist by staying connected in some way.... and then a small group of new elite who live on an entirely different level, both intellectually and in terms of physical and mental experiences (and consequentially health). it is a dark vision... i'm hoping that it doesn't come to this...

In any case, this view does not support the idea of there being lots of future cruisers. If anything, i think there will be many future pirates...



* it is curious because, when i read the different posts, i give different posters on here different, very individual voices. and these voices come automatically now when i read something from that particular person. does anyone else experience this?


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Old 27-02-2019, 06:34   #54
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Doers, dreamers and planners.

There are "doers" on this planet and there are "dreamers." The dreamers far out-number the doers, but now with TV and the internet, the dreamers can feel like they actually did something by living/participating vicariously through someone else's experience they watched on youtube or read about on forums like this one.

Just do a quick survey on this forum and see how many of the participants even own a boat or a boat suitable for full or part-time cruising, I'll bet it's far less than half.... so even here on a cruising forum I'm thinking the dreamers far out-number the doers.

Each of our boats were originally owned by another group I consider to be the "planners." Usually very successful people who love to make lofty plans and build stuff. They'll spend years running a business, and then a couple of years building their dream boat to set off and see the world, only to get frustrated and quit after they find out they're just cruising from shipyard to shipyard fixing stuff whilst still running their land businesses; so eventually their almost new, unused boat goes up for sale to someone like me who'll actually go somewhere on it.

Of course, everyone these days sees themselves as being a doer even if they're still sitting on the couch or tied to a dock and not getting anywhere.
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Old 27-02-2019, 06:54   #55
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I have found the main thing people want is to live vicariously through others.. the voyeur syndrome in a safe place with no personal risk.
You want fear.. watch a horror/gore fest movie..
You want adventure.. do the same or whip out the Xbox, whatever..
You want sex log into a porn channel.. hell even meeting the opposite/same sex is an online occupation.
Gone are the days of going out to a bar or club, you may get rejected in real life.. or mugged coming from or going to the venue..
As a kid I was encouraged to head out, climbing trees no biggie even when I broke both wrists showing off with a Tarzan like dive from one tree to another.. its what kids did and one learns from it.. watch what Your doing not how many are watching.. less likely to miss the branch
Today the little darlings are wrapped in cotton wool and its Oh no dear you may get hurt.. Could explain all the bleeding and self pity on FB..
"My dog/cat died yesterday"
"Oh you poor dear.. My prayers are with you"
On the bright side however there still exist the hard core 1% who continue to love danger and relish physically induced adrenaline.
May they always be with us and the Liberals and parents never succeed in suppressing their individualism..
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Old 27-02-2019, 07:59   #56
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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I have found the main thing people want is to live vicariously through others.. the voyeur syndrome in a safe place with no personal risk.
You want fear.. watch a horror/gore fest movie..
You want adventure.. do the same or whip out the Xbox, whatever..
You want sex log into a porn channel.. hell even meeting the opposite/same sex is an online occupation.
Gone are the days of going out to a bar or club, you may get rejected in real life.. or mugged coming from or going to the venue..
As a kid I was encouraged to head out, climbing trees no biggie even when I broke both wrists showing off with a Tarzan like dive from one tree to another.. its what kids did and one learns from it.. watch what Your doing not how many are watching.. less likely to miss the branch
Today the little darlings are wrapped in cotton wool and its Oh no dear you may get hurt.. Could explain all the bleeding and self pity on FB..
"My dog/cat died yesterday"
"Oh you poor dear.. My prayers are with you"
On the bright side however there still exist the hard core 1% who continue to love danger and relish physically induced adrenaline.
May they always be with us and the Liberals and parents never succeed in suppressing their individualism..


Since, as has often been said, "security doesn't exist in nature," risk-taking may in fact be a necessary precondition to personal fulfillment. Seems to me the best the virtual world may have to offer is inspiration to get out and live in the real world. Otherwise the personal fulfillment is merely temporary if not illusory, namely ending until the beginning of the next video game.
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Old 27-02-2019, 08:14   #57
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I have found the main thing people want is to live vicariously through others.. the voyeur syndrome in a safe place with no personal risk.
You want fear.. watch a horror/gore fest movie..
You want adventure.. do the same or whip out the Xbox, whatever..
You want sex log into a porn channel.. hell even meeting the opposite/same sex is an online occupation.
Gone are the days of going out to a bar or club, you may get rejected in real life.. or mugged coming from or going to the venue..
As a kid I was encouraged to head out, climbing trees no biggie even when I broke both wrists showing off with a Tarzan like dive from one tree to another.. its what kids did and one learns from it.. watch what Your doing not how many are watching.. less likely to miss the branch
Today the little darlings are wrapped in cotton wool and its Oh no dear you may get hurt.. Could explain all the bleeding and self pity on FB..
"My dog/cat died yesterday"
"Oh you poor dear.. My prayers are with you"
On the bright side however there still exist the hard core 1% who continue to love danger and relish physically induced adrenaline.
May they always be with us and the Liberals and parents never succeed in suppressing their individualism..
Boatie,

And that's encouraged by the marketing and peer pressure. Just grind out that daily cubicle job to pay the subscription fees for your escapism. And if you do dare to interact with the outside world they'll sell you an insurance packet to to cover any and all risk... for a subscription fee. Bleeding your soul dry one dollar at a time.
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Old 27-02-2019, 08:31   #58
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Since, as has often been said, "security doesn't exist in nature," risk-taking may in fact be a necessary precondition to personal fulfillment. Seems to me the best the virtual world may have to offer is inspiration to get out and live in the real world. Otherwise the personal fulfillment is merely temporary if not illusory, namely ending until the beginning of the next video game.
I have known sons of friends who spend 40+ hours a time on the online fantasy games.. then crash for a few hours, raid the fridge/larder then do another 2 days non stop for weeks at a time.. live at home and dont work.. Some are in their early 30's and slowly become more and more agrophobic as time goes on.. just walking to the corner shop is a mission that needs psyching up for.
These things suck you into a world that is real for them.. they can be the warrior hero or heroine, have avatar sex and anything else you can and cannot do in the real world.. in some ways its worse than heroin addiction.. with non of the discomforts of the physical, apart from going downstairs to the kitchen over across the hall to the loo.
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Old 27-02-2019, 08:34   #59
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Mmmm who would have thought that this thread would turn into a bunch of old farts lamenting the state of today's youth... color me surprised )

I would honestly take a long hard look at your lives and realize this fact: You enjoy fixing machines, playing, tinkering etc... All of the people you know are probably similar in this regard, hence the reason that you are friends in the first place. Now on the other hand, think of all the young people you know. Chances are they are not acquaintance by choice, but rather by fate. Your children, your childrens' friends, the neighborhood kid. The distribution of technical aptitude amongst this group is more representative of the general population. Now when you compare the folks you know in your age group(more likely to have similar interests) vs the younger generation that are in your life not due to your choice, of course it will seem like they don't have the same skills your generation does!!!

Remember yall... the plural of anecdote is not data

Edit: As a disclaimer, I've learned a ton from all the members on this site, even the ones screaming "GET OFF MY LAWN!!!" and I have the utmost respect for all of you
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Old 27-02-2019, 09:01   #60
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Most the old people I know are as bad or worse when it comes to watching life vs living life (they might just use different technologies).
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