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Old 27-02-2019, 09:16   #61
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

As one of these "millenials" (I'm turning 30 next month), perhaps I can share some insight on what the world looks like from our end.

-Money
This is the primary obstacle to getting out there. Even a $10k boat is a lot of money for me, nevermind a $750k one.
Marina fees are also very expensive, because most of their clientele is the silver-haired crowd that doesn't sneeze at dropping several $k a year for a slip.
All the other "marine-grade" stuff you have to put on your boat is very expensive, and I'm not made of money.
Also, just going out there and cruising isn't free either. I have to feed myself, pay for fuel, mooring fees, repairs, etc. and while I'm cruising I'm not working. I don't have a pension, and I suspect most of my generation never will. I have to find other ways to get money while I'm cruising. Youtube / Patreon vlogs are a good example of a modern solution to that problem.

-Technical ability
I don't think this is a major aspect, contrary to the common belief I see here. Yes, boats are relatively complex systems as a whole, but each part is relatively simple in isolation. I suspect most cruisers will be more technically literate than the general population, but I think this aspect will stay constant in the future.

-Helicopter parenting
This is honestly more of a reflection of our society in general than something that is specific to our generation. For example, when I was a kid, my parents often left me in the car while they were in the store. I'm very scared to do that with my kids, because there will inevitably be a silver-haired woman calling the police / CPS. Just the other day, someone I know almost had a cop call CPS because she didn't know exactly where her kids were (they were playing nearby and wandered off while she was talking to the officier). The cop was there because an old lady saw the kids but didn't see her, so she called the cops.

I'll expand that last point: Most problems the boomers see in the millenial generation are the result of their own actions:
- We don't buy homes anymore? That's because you're asking too much for yours
- We don't buy homes anymore (bis)? That's because we got a degree like you told us to, and now already have mortgage payments in the form of student loans.
- We don't let our kids roam free? That's because you'll call the cops if we do
- We don't buy boats anymore? That's because you're paying miserable wages, while pushing the market up everywhere.

I could go on and on. Of couse, we do some stupid stuff on our own, too, but that's not what boomers usually complain about.
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Old 27-02-2019, 10:40   #62
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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Originally Posted by wolfgal View Post
Mike, you have a point about the level of comfort having gone up with each successive generation (so far...); though my feeling is that comfort is mostly something that one generation attempts to provide and secure for the next until the next can secure it for itself and its offspring. afterall, doesn't the providing-a-better-life-for-our-kids instinct seem to manifest itself primarily through the transfer of an attained level of comfort?
Agreed. That’s kinda my point; this trend of increasing luxury has always existed — at least during the period of history where generations have grown increasingly wealthy.

It’s interesting to look at the long spectrum of human history where generational wealth growth generally did not exist. This "providing-a-better-life-for-our-kids” is actually a fairly recent development. For the vast majority of human civilization, where you were born is where you died, both physically and economically. Thomas Piketty and other economists are pointing out that the economic norm of our human civilizations are far more stratified and calcified society. Data shows we are returning back to this long term norm.

… Which is a foundational reason for the decline in cruising. The vast middle class can decreasingly afford the luxury of sailing off into the sunset.

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take us, we are doing this, here, together on CF. with our connection to the internet, we are collectively generating a feeling of community, while satisfying an individual need for community. the give and take of our interactions allow us to do this. the fact that we write, that each of us has a way of writing, of responding as very different individuals contributes to the strength of this community.*
Agreed. This technology is extremely powerful. It’s little wonder few of us — regardless of age — are willing, or even able, to live a disconnected life anymore. Indeed, part of my approach to cruising is to go to places where there are poor-to-no Internet connections. This is the best way to filter out all the common complaints cruisers have about crowded anchorages. It seems to me that while cruiser numbers may be decreasing, people are congregating in fewer and fewer places.

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My kids are lazy these days, no interest in sailing or motorcycles. They sit at home playing video games and I have to struggle to get them to come outside for a walk with the dog without some kind of bribe. When I was a kid, we spent all day, every day, outside.
And my view is that every generation (at least in modern history) has faced the same dynamic. “The kids today” are never as good (or strong, or smart, or self-motivated, or whatever…) as the parents believe they were. And the parents weren’t as good as their parents, and so on…
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Old 27-02-2019, 10:58   #63
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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...There are "doers" on this planet and there are "dreamers." The dreamers far out-number the doers, but now with TV and the internet, the dreamers can feel like they actually did something by living/participating vicariously through someone else's experience they watched on youtube or read about on forums like this one.
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I have found the main thing people want is to live vicariously through others.. the voyeur syndrome in a safe place with no personal risk. … On the bright side however there still exist the hard core 1% who continue to love danger and relish physically induced adrenaline.
Agreed, although as you say Boatie, I suspect it has always been the case. Most of us seek the safe and trodden path. It is the rare few who venture off down the road, or sail off into the sunset. Always has been this way, and I suspect always will be.

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Just do a quick survey on this forum and see how many of the participants even own a boat or a boat suitable for full or part-time cruising, I'll bet it's far less than half.... so even here on a cruising forum I'm thinking the dreamers far out-number the doers.
THIS would be an interesting poll to conduct Ken. Wanna give it a go?

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Since, as has often been said, "security doesn't exist in nature," risk-taking may in fact be a necessary precondition to personal fulfillment. Seems to me the best the virtual world may have to offer is inspiration to get out and live in the real world. Otherwise the personal fulfillment is merely temporary if not illusory, namely ending until the beginning of the next video game.
You’re right, absolute security doesn’t exist in Nature, but relative security certainly does. All species evolve techniques to enhance their member’s likelihood of surviving long enough to pass on their genes. Humans have evolved pack and community traits which easily explain why most of us remain dreamers.

In fact, if you look at it from an evolutionary perspective, perhaps the doers (to use Ken’s nomenclature) are slowly being weeded out of the gene pool since most doers likely meet early ends, and are less likely to have mates around to pass on genes.

Hmmmm, maybe that’s why cruising is declining — it IS the kids' fault! (kidding, of course Evolution doesn’t work that fast.)

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Most the old people I know are as bad or worse when it comes to watching life vs living life (they might just use different technologies).
Exactly.
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Old 27-02-2019, 11:02   #64
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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Doers, dreamers and planners.

There are "doers" on this planet and there are "dreamers." The dreamers far out-number the doers, but now with TV and the internet, the dreamers can feel like they actually did something by living/participating vicariously through someone else's experience they watched on youtube or read about on forums like this one.

Just do a quick survey on this forum and see how many of the participants even own a boat or a boat suitable for full or part-time cruising, I'll bet it's far less than half.... so even here on a cruising forum I'm thinking the dreamers far out-number the doers.

Each of our boats were originally owned by another group I consider to be the "planners." Usually very successful people who love to make lofty plans and build stuff. They'll spend years running a business, and then a couple of years building their dream boat to set off and see the world, only to get frustrated and quit after they find out they're just cruising from shipyard to shipyard fixing stuff whilst still running their land businesses; so eventually their almost new, unused boat goes up for sale to someone like me who'll actually go somewhere on it.

Of course, everyone these days sees themselves as being a doer even if they're still sitting on the couch or tied to a dock and not getting anywhere.
Just to be very clear, I believe my observations are not limited to younger people, they span across all age groups equally in todays world. The oldsters are equally as lazy as some of the younger folk when it comes to participation in anything other than TV and internet; and there are younger people today who are very ambitious... just as ambitions as the few older people today who are out actually doing stuff.

So this phenom has nothing at all to do with having money or lack of money, it has much more to do with prying one's self off the couch.

A few years ago, I read about a woman who'd spent so much time sitting on the couch, that her butt had taken the shape of her couch and the fire department had to be summoned to extract her from the couch in order to take her to the hospital. This is the world we live in.
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Old 27-02-2019, 11:09   #65
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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Originally Posted by emilecantin View Post
As one of these "millenials" (I'm turning 30 next month), perhaps I can share some insight on what the world looks like from our end.

-Money
This is the primary obstacle to getting out there. Even a $10k boat is a lot of money for me, nevermind a $750k one.
Marina fees are also very expensive, because most of their clientele is the silver-haired crowd that doesn't sneeze at dropping several $k a year for a slip.
All the other "marine-grade" stuff you have to put on your boat is very expensive, and I'm not made of money.
Also, just going out there and cruising isn't free either. I have to feed myself, pay for fuel, mooring fees, repairs, etc. and while I'm cruising I'm not working. I don't have a pension, and I suspect most of my generation never will. I have to find other ways to get money while I'm cruising. Youtube / Patreon vlogs are a good example of a modern solution to that problem.

-Technical ability
I don't think this is a major aspect, contrary to the common belief I see here. Yes, boats are relatively complex systems as a whole, but each part is relatively simple in isolation. I suspect most cruisers will be more technically literate than the general population, but I think this aspect will stay constant in the future.

-Helicopter parenting
This is honestly more of a reflection of our society in general than something that is specific to our generation. For example, when I was a kid, my parents often left me in the car while they were in the store. I'm very scared to do that with my kids, because there will inevitably be a silver-haired woman calling the police / CPS. Just the other day, someone I know almost had a cop call CPS because she didn't know exactly where her kids were (they were playing nearby and wandered off while she was talking to the officier). The cop was there because an old lady saw the kids but didn't see her, so she called the cops.

I'll expand that last point: Most problems the boomers see in the millenial generation are the result of their own actions:
- We don't buy homes anymore? That's because you're asking too much for yours
- We don't buy homes anymore (bis)? That's because we got a degree like you told us to, and now already have mortgage payments in the form of student loans.
- We don't let our kids roam free? That's because you'll call the cops if we do
- We don't buy boats anymore? That's because you're paying miserable wages, while pushing the market up everywhere.

I could go on and on. Of couse, we do some stupid stuff on our own, too, but that's not what boomers usually complain about.
Well said emilecantin. I suggest everyone read the above carefully.

(Of course, I like it b/c it agrees with much of what I’ve said ).
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Old 27-02-2019, 11:11   #66
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pirate Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

LMAO... to the 30 something who thinks even a $10K boat is a struggle.. you are one of many here who assume most here have a sweet padded 410K life..
The Baby Boomers had it so Good.. but many off us did not.. we worked in factories, driving and other 'menial' jobs and were what UK politicians refer to as the 'JAM's'..
the just about managing who gave up a lot to make that KISS boat that a lot here would not consider safe to cross the Chesapeake on..
If you want anything enough you can get it with sacrifice.. maybe no watermaker, AC, blah blah but..
The view is just as awesome if you've the balls.
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Old 27-02-2019, 11:20   #67
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilecantin View Post
As one of these "millenials" (I'm turning 30 next month), perhaps I can share some insight on what the world looks like from our end.

-Money
This is the primary obstacle to getting out there. Even a $10k boat is a lot of money for me, nevermind a $750k one.
Marina fees are also very expensive, because most of their clientele is the silver-haired crowd that doesn't sneeze at dropping several $k a year for a slip.
All the other "marine-grade" stuff you have to put on your boat is very expensive, and I'm not made of money.
Also, just going out there and cruising isn't free either. I have to feed myself, pay for fuel, mooring fees, repairs, etc. and while I'm cruising I'm not working. I don't have a pension, and I suspect most of my generation never will. I have to find other ways to get money while I'm cruising. Youtube / Patreon vlogs are a good example of a modern solution to that problem.

-Technical ability
I don't think this is a major aspect, contrary to the common belief I see here. Yes, boats are relatively complex systems as a whole, but each part is relatively simple in isolation. I suspect most cruisers will be more technically literate than the general population, but I think this aspect will stay constant in the future.

-Helicopter parenting
This is honestly more of a reflection of our society in general than something that is specific to our generation. For example, when I was a kid, my parents often left me in the car while they were in the store. I'm very scared to do that with my kids, because there will inevitably be a silver-haired woman calling the police / CPS. Just the other day, someone I know almost had a cop call CPS because she didn't know exactly where her kids were (they were playing nearby and wandered off while she was talking to the officier). The cop was there because an old lady saw the kids but didn't see her, so she called the cops.

I'll expand that last point: Most problems the boomers see in the millenial generation are the result of their own actions:
- We don't buy homes anymore? That's because you're asking too much for yours
- We don't buy homes anymore (bis)? That's because we got a degree like you told us to, and now already have mortgage payments in the form of student loans.
- We don't let our kids roam free? That's because you'll call the cops if we do
- We don't buy boats anymore? That's because you're paying miserable wages, while pushing the market up everywhere.

I could go on and on. Of couse, we do some stupid stuff on our own, too, but that's not what boomers usually complain about.
Oh please spare me.....

When we were in our 20's, all we had and could afford was a beat up O'Day 20 we carted down to the launch ramp via our 1965 Ford Falcon. It took thirty years of hard work and saving up to afford our first larger boat a Hunter 450 purchased 8 years ago.

Our first home was purchased just after Jimmy Carter was president for $190K with an 18% annual mortgage rate with negative amortization. So after making payments on it for three years, we then owed $195K. Yeah.... we were definitely living on Easy Street.
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Old 27-02-2019, 11:29   #68
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

I'm impressed with the opinions - conceptual and otherwise - on this thread. Being born in the mid 50's, I believe I am in both camps; I spend a ton of time online, yet I cannot wait to leave it all behind for a life of gunkholing the South Pacific.

Just over a year ago, recovering from surgery, I needed a way to stop any dangerous activity so I could heal. By dangerous, I mean exertion. I downloaded a number of 'games', one was a simulation game where I build my own city. I would log on daily, some days spending more than 12 hours on it.

The premise of the game is both personal accomplishment and interaction with other players through a common grouping strategy. This means I had the opportunity to chat with people all over the world, at all times of the day.

I am astounded how people live and breathe a game rather than live it. When I announced I was leaving, along with the reasons, the envy was clear. But when I suggested they could do the same, the responses were more toward the resistance of leaving the comfort they had achieved than the possibility of an adventure. To many, their participation in the game met those necessities, and to leave now would be to jump off a cliff without a parachute.

With my healing complete, I just dumped the game after just over a year of daily use.

I am deeply concerned. While my time in the game playing with these people was very enjoyable, I could hardly wait to get back to achieving a life of adventure. These people are all ages, each with their own set of values, coming together with others of like mind, to perpetuate what? Surprisingly, many of them actually believe the game is an adventure. Moreover, I am astounded these people seem to have given up the value of real life experiences over the slim rewards of an interactive computer game, and the chat of others of like mind. What happened?

I'm not sure if there is fault and blame, though I can see evidence of trend behavior based on political, economic and social insecurities. The trend seems to be doing more with less. Financially, debt to 'get ahead' can greatly cripple an adventurous lifestyle. Then there's waving old glory in a foreign port, which even the thought of can quickly stifle an adventurous spirit. Moreover, with the direction of current governmental policies, I understand the gain people have creating vicarious illusions of adventure with those who dare to take that risk.

For me, I can hardly wait to get out on anchor in some warm water bay surrounded in palm trees, while flying a foreign courtesy flag. Sadly, and I state this with tremendous reluctance, the boat we are looking at has TracVision TV. I would remove it, but one of the 'conditions' Wifey has in joining me is that we have a way to stay in constant contact with world developments. However, she has agreed that if having it onboard ever takes precedence over going on an adventure, the TracVision will get the 'Armstrong Float Test'.

The biggest question I am facing is whether we will be safe. In many ways, I believe we will. Yet, in some ways, as previously stated, there is no adventure in always being safe, so I hope we get challenged. Some challenges may be life threatening. So be it. Though I'm not really looking forward to them, ...I welcome them.

In those last three words, I can rationalize peoples resistance.
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Old 27-02-2019, 11:38   #69
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

Well, in addition to being entertained while at desayuno, I learned one good thing reading this thread - the plural of anecdote isn’t data.
Muy bien.
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The curientes can be mas rapido aqui, and I like having plenty of options to get to where I’m going - or even trying to stay in one place on the hook.
All of which can be rather expensive.
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Old 27-02-2019, 11:44   #70
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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Oh please spare me.....

When we were in our 20's, all we had and could afford was a beat up O'Day 20 we carted down to the launch ramp via our 1965 Ford Falcon. It took thirty years of hard work and saving up to afford our first larger boat a Hunter 450 purchased 8 years ago.
I might be wrong, but I think the overall boating market was different back then. There were more people like you, so the market was actually catering to st least some of your needs. Cheaper marinas, somewhat affordable equipments and "marine" stuff, laxer regulations, etc. Nowadays, the marked is pretty much exclusively oriented at boomers, because that's where the money is.

But then, I wasn't there, so what do I know? I just wanted to offer some perspective on how I (and most people my age) see the world.
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Old 27-02-2019, 11:54   #71
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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LMAO... to the 30 something who thinks even a $10K boat is a struggle.. you are one of many here who assume most here have a sweet padded 410K life..
The Baby Boomers had it so Good.. but many off us did not.. we worked in factories, driving and other 'menial' jobs and were what UK politicians refer to as the 'JAM's'..
the just about managing who gave up a lot to make that KISS boat that a lot here would not consider safe to cross the Chesapeake on..
If you want anything enough you can get it with sacrifice.. maybe no watermaker, AC, blah blah but..
The view is just as awesome if you've the balls.
Yeah, I believe that's pretty much what I'll have to do if I want to go cruising. KISS!

Back then, you could make a good life, and raise a family on a factory job, though. Put in your 25-30 years, retire on a good pension, and go cruising.

Nowadays, you almost need a degree to be hired at Mc Donalds', and they expect 5 years experience for an entry-level position. Yet they cry about labour shortages. And a pension? What's that? Here's 500 bucks to put in your RRSP, that oughta do it.

I'm exaggerating, but that's how it feels sometimes.
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Old 27-02-2019, 12:04   #72
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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I might be wrong, but I think the overall boating market was different back then. There were more people like you, so the market was actually catering to st least some of your needs. Cheaper marinas, somewhat affordable equipments and "marine" stuff, laxer regulations, etc. Nowadays, the marked is pretty much exclusively oriented at boomers, because that's where the money is.

But then, I wasn't there, so what do I know? I just wanted to offer some perspective on how I (and most people my age) see the world.
No, you actually have it sort of messed up and here's why....

We purchased the early 1970's beat up, fixer upper O'Day 20 for $2000 at the time; which was a considerable amount of money back in 1980. We then spent a year painting it with Awlgrip inside and out and making it seaworthy to go to the Channel Islands off California. So we probably had $4000 invested at the time when I include the new sails, and all new hardware and woodwork.

A person in their 20's or 30's today, can purchase that same entry level day sailer mini cruiser for about $2500 in todays dollars, which is about 1/4 the cost if adjusted for inflation. So it's actually gotten cheaper for newbies to start cruising today..... not more difficult. The boat was and still is trailerable, so that makes your high cost of marinas point mute, and besides... marinas cost just as much back in the early 1980's as they do now when prices are adjusted for inflation. I think we paid $75 per month when we kept it in Dana Point marina for a year back in 1985.

Maybe the difference is.... we weren't so busy blaming everyone else for our problems back then, we just saved up our money and bought stuff. Gasoline was 75 cents per gallon and minimum wage in the US was $1.65/hr in 1980, plus we needed to wait in line on odd or even days just to buy the stuff (gasoline). Today, gasoline is $1.99 per gallon and minimum wage is $12-$15 per hour depending on where one lives. Apartment rents were $795 per month for a one bedroom in Southern California in 1980, today a one bedroom apartment in our town here in Massachusetts averages $1200/month in the suburbs. things are generally much cheaper when adjusted for inflation and compared to wages.
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Old 27-02-2019, 12:13   #73
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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Millennials are less well off than members of earlier generations when they were young, with lower earnings, fewer assets, and less wealth. For debt, millennials hold levels similar to those of Generation X and more than those of the baby boomers. Conditional on their age and other factors, millennials do not appear to have preferences for consumption that differ significantly from those of earlier generations.
Taken from the abstract of a recent research paper done by the Federal Reserve Board (“the Fed”).

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econr...2018080pap.pdf

Personal anecdotes aside, there is mountains of actual research and data to show that younger generations, starting with Gen-X, but accelerating with Millennial and now Gen Z or iGen as some call them, have less wealth and less economic stability compared to Baby Boomer and older generations. emilecantin’s description is an accurate one.
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Old 27-02-2019, 12:18   #74
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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Taken from the abstract of a recent research paper done by the Federal Reserve Board (“the Fed”).

https://www.federalreserve.gov/econr...2018080pap.pdf

Personal anecdotes aside, there is mountains of actual research and data to show that younger generations, starting with Gen-X, but accelerating with Millennial and now Gen Z or iGen as some call them, have less wealth and less economic stability compared to Baby Boomer and older generations. emilecantin’s description is an accurate one.
That's because they're busy wasting money on $1000 cellphones, $35,000 cars, $200 jeans and $500 sneakers; they actually make more money today when adjusted for inflation than folks did back in the 1970's and 1980's.

There's nothing stopping them from buying fixer upper boats, used cars and shopping for clothing at Walmart like the rest of us.

Now they even have you making excuses for them...
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Old 27-02-2019, 12:19   #75
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Re: How many cruisers would there be out there?

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No, you actually have it sort of messed up and here's why....

We purchased the early 1970's beat up, fixer upper O'Day 20 for $2000 at the time; which was a considerable amount of money back in 1980. We then spent a year painting it with Awlgrip inside and out and making it seaworthy to go to the Channel Islands off California. So we probably had $4000 invested at the time when I include the new sails, and all new hardware and woodwork.

A person in their 20's or 30's today, can purchase that same entry level day sailer mini cruiser for about $2500 in todays dollars, which is about 1/4 the cost if adjusted for inflation. So it's actually gotten cheaper for newbies to start cruising today..... not more difficult. The boat was and still is trailerable, so that makes your high cost of marinas point mute, and besides... marinas cost just as much back in the early 1980's as they do now when prices are adjusted for inflation. I think we paid $75 per month when we kept it in Dana Point marina for a year back in 1985.
Thanks for that perspective, looks like I was wrong about some of that. Altough that entry level day sailer mini cruiser will probably be the same actual boat; my first boat was a 1973 Tanzer 22 which I bought in 2015 for ~2500$. It is now much older than it was in 1980! 10-year old boats go for much more, around $20-30k. These boats are much nicer than what was made in the 70s, though.

I think what's happening is that the entry-level, NEW market has essentially collapsed, while the used marked has flourished, powered by the sheer durability of these fiberglass boats. This may have made it more accessible financially, but it's a little more daunting because you then have to do a bunch of repairs on a 40+ year-old boat.
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