Getting clearance to leave the US with a US vessel

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

That's one of the most America-centric posts I've read here in quite a while! You seem to assume that other countries need to abide by America's rules.

Every country is sovereign, and even the small Caribbean nations such as Antigua & Barbuda are free to make their travel rules. If they say a Zarpe is required for entry, then it is; and if Americans can freely leave the USA that has absolutely no bearing on the matter.

An explicit exception for one rally does not constitute a change in policy for Antigua. Those officers, both in Jolly and English, can be talked with. I left Antigua at English Habbour yesterday and negotiated permission to return soon to volunteer at a regatta; despite my passport having less than 6 months to run. But that doesn't mean that someone else might have gotten denied entry for the same reason today.

Murica!!
Cheers/Len

[Joli]

As an American, you don't need permission from the US government to leave. But upon arrival in a foreign country you may need a US exit document to enter that foreign country. It's not difficult to get an exit document from the CPB so why would you sail potentially thousands of miles without an exit document? My crew would be less then happy with me if we arrived somewhere and we're denied entry because I failed to aquire an exit document from the USA.

Why is this difficult to understand?

[StoneCrab]

I got the decal, got the ROAM app, got a TWIC, got Trusted Traveler credentials, TSA Precheck, NEXUS, Passport... did I forget anything?

Every CPB office tells me a different story.

When I went for the Trusted Traveler interview I reviewed the check in check out procedure with the agent. When I brought up the ROAM app, he said that as a US Citizen, I do not need that. I can go where ever I want in the country. He seemed to indicate that I didn't even need to check back in.

Speaking to older guys at the marina, it is a pretty common practice on the way home to just "keep on goin". They used to have video phones at various ports. These have fallen out of favor, replaced by the ROAM app.

I'll admit a level of frustration. There doesn't seem to be a consistent CBP policy for recreational boats.... or perhaps it is the training of the officers that is inconsistent. I have no doubt that they have the commercial side down cold but seem to be making it up as they go on the recreational side, given the number of different answers that I have been given.

I am unclear where the lines are drawn between CBP and Homeland Security. I did have a conversation with the USCG about this once and they said that they aren't tasked with any of the Customs and Border Protection duties, only safety at sea. This sees to fly in the face of my experience. Every time I am on a cruise, it is the USCG pulling me over not any other agency.

It is usually the young guys pulling me over in small boats with large engines. All jacked up looking like SWAT, it is a bit over the top for a safety check. I have never had a bad experience with them but on reflection, they also do not know my route or checkin status.

I don't fault the intentions but fear that I'll be found in violation of some code that is widely interpreted. I'd love to see a web page published by the government that defines the requirements and responsibilities for recreational vessels entering and leaving the country. If it can't be clearly stated, it can't be uniformly enforced.

[Sebastian]

SailFastTri, could you pls share brand and model of your printer/scanner? Thank you!

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I got the decal, got the ROAM app, got a TWIC, got Trusted Traveler credentials, TSA Precheck, NEXUS, Passport... did I forget anything?

Every CPB office tells me a different story.

When I went for the Trusted Traveler interview I reviewed the check in check out procedure with the agent. When I brought up the ROAM app, he said that as a US Citizen, I do not need that. I can go where ever I want in the country. He seemed to indicate that I didn't even need to check back in.

Well... duh! Of course as a USA flagged boat you can go where ever you want inside the USA without "checking in."

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

Speaking to older guys at the marina, it is a pretty common practice on the way home to just "keep on goin". They used to have video phones at various ports. These have fallen out of favor, replaced by the ROAM app.

All those "old guys" at the dock who suggest you don't need to check in at all when coming back from a foreign country, and can get away with it... well... you can, right up until you get caught.

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I am unclear where the lines are drawn between CBP and Homeland Security. I did have a conversation with the USCG about this once and they said that they aren't tasked with any of the Customs and Border Protection duties, only safety at sea. This sees to fly in the face of my experience. Every time I am on a cruise, it is the USCG pulling me over not any other agency.

It is usually the young guys pulling me over in small boats with large engines. All jacked up looking like SWAT, it is a bit over the top for a safety check. I have never had a bad experience with them but on reflection, they also do not know my route or checkin status.

The USCG does not "do" immigration and customs clearance. They DO enforcement of the laws around human trafficking and drug smuggling, as well as safety enforcement. What exactly IS your complaint here? That they didn't change into a suit and tie to board your yacht?

Just because YOU have never been stopped by a CPB vessel does not mean they are not out there. Because they are targeting a much narrow range of law enforcement, the profile of boats they routinely stop is also quite narrow.

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I don't fault the intentions but fear that I'll be found in violation of some code that is widely interpreted. I'd love to see a web page published by the government that defines the requirements and responsibilities for recreational vessels entering and leaving the country. If it can't be clearly stated, it can't be uniformly enforced.

That's a lot of whining about a lot of different topics.

For checking into the USA as a pleasure boat you asked for a simple webpage with the official guidance. You want a page like this: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/pleasure-...-boat-overview. It wasn't hard to find a google search for "cbp recreation boat checkin" and it is the first listing. Maybe your google is broken?

Seems pretty clear to me. Checking into the USA as a "small boat" is now done almost exclusively through the ROAM app. I have used it more than a dozen times on my own boat, and on deliveries. It is simple and easy.

Checking OUT of the USA is a bit more confusing, but there has been some excellent explaination of the process upthread (along with the usual misinformation!). The USA does not require USA flagged vessels to check out. You are allowed to just leave. But there are countries that DO REQUIRE you the have papers showing that you checked out. If you show up without outbound clearance, they can make your life miserable, levy a stiff fine, or refuse you entry.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

As US citizens, we do not need permission to go/travel. That said, many countries do not know, or believe this. Our Salty Dawg organization had to grease the skids in Antigua for our fall rally. No problem entering English Harbor but a few tried to clear in at Jolly Harbor. Those immigration guys were not given the word. You can get a zarpa from the CG or other US agents but it is sometimes difficult. If you clear into any of the French West Indies islands, generally there is no problem.

As an American who travels extensively enough to fill the pages of a passport before it expires, this arrogant, and obnoxious attitude is exactly the kind of thing responsible for the stereotype of the "Ugly American." It is unfortunate that the stereotype has more than a little truth to it.

Besides the obnoxious attitude, it is also VERY misinformed. You can NOT get a zarpe from the Coast Guard. Period. Never. Getting a zarpe from the CPB (the ONLY agency that issues them!) is never "difficult" although it can be inconvenient in that you have to leave from an official port of entry. Kind of like every other country in the world.

The Salty Dawg Rally SHOULD have simply gotten all of you a zarpe, or at least told you how to do so. I would think that is the kind of service you are paying the rally operator for. Even if they have "fixed it" on the other end, having a zarpe makes life a lot easier if you have to land in some port other than the expected one if you have weather or mechanical problems.

Just as an example, in Grenada, if you show up without a zarpe, you will be fined. The size of the fine is at the discretion of the officer checking you in. If you have made a mistake and just didn't understand, and are polite and humble about it, you will be fined $500. If you come to the table with the attitude of Nicholsen58 you will be fined $2500.

[StoneCrab]

SailingHarmonie why the crab-ass attitude? It isn't necessary or appreciated.

[Bycrick]

Not appreciating something doesn’t make it less true. For years, I watched cruisers sail into Panama from the north, then spend months without actually checking in. "We will do it when we get to Panama City." Most of them got away with it then. But occasionally you’d find the authorities going around the various anchorages checking paperwork. Results varied. I saw lots of people told to move on, or check in properly. I saw one entire 5-man delivery crew sent from the northern border back to Colon to get their paperwork done right.

It’s easier just to follow the rules.

[h20man]

As mentioned by @SailingHarmonie, it is CODIFIED in the United States LAW ( 19 U.S. Code § 1433):
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/19/1433




CONTENT from:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/19/1433


<QUOTE>
19 U.S. Code § 1433 - Report of arrival of vessels, vehicles, and aircraft


(a) Vessel arrival (1) Immediately upon the arrival at any port or place within the United States or the Virgin Islands of— (A) any vessel from a foreign port or place;

(B) any foreign vessel from a domestic port;

(C) any vessel of the United States carrying foreign merchandise for which entry has not been made; or

(D) any vessel which has visited a hovering vessel or received merchandise while outside the territorial sea;

the master of the vessel shall report the arrival at the nearest customs facility or such other place as the Secretary may prescribe by regulations.

(2) The Secretary may by regulation— (A) prescribe the manner in which arrivals are to be reported under paragraph (1); and

(B) extend the time in which reports of arrival must be made, but not later than 24 hours after arrival.


(b) Vehicle arrival (1) Vehicles may arrive in the United States only at border crossing points designated by the Secretary.

(2) Except as otherwise authorized by the Secretary, immediately upon the arrival of any vehicle in the United States at a border crossing point, the person in charge of the vehicle shall— (A) report the arrival; and

(B) present the vehicle, and all persons and merchandise (including baggage) on board, for inspection;

to the customs officer at the customs facility designated for that crossing point.


(c) Aircraft arrival The pilot of any aircraft arriving in the United States or the Virgin Islands from any foreign airport or place shall comply with such advance notification, arrival reporting, and landing requirements as the Secretary may by regulation prescribe.


(d) Presentation of documentation The master, person in charge of a vehicle, or aircraft pilot shall present, or transmit pursuant to an electronic data interchange system, to the Customs Service such information, data, documents, papers, or manifests as the Secretary may by regulation prescribe.


(e) Prohibition on departures and discharge

Unless otherwise authorized by law, a vessel, aircraft or vehicle after arriving in the United States or Virgin Islands may, but only in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary— (1) depart from the port, place, or airport of arrival; or

(2) discharge any passenger or merchandise (including baggage).



<END QUOTE>


It is illegal to not check in. Will you get caught? Possibly small chance, as the CBP is overtaxed with land and ocean crossing of illigal migrants.


But. Evidence can remain... Did you transmit AIS?



Are you willing to pay the penalty? It is not that much.. 5 BOAT units ($5000) for first offence.. and 10 BOAT ($10,000) units for second. Oh yes.. and possible seizure and forfeiture of vessel used in violation.


Almost forgot.. There are also criminal penalties that one can be hit with.


So bloody simple to check in with ROAM (apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cbp-...263234017?mt=8 ) (Google play store: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d....oars&hl=en_US ) (more info here: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/pleasure-...-overview/roam )










Penalty part of law:


Content from:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/19/1436

<QUOTE>
19 U.S. Code § 1436 - Penalties for violations of arrival, reporting, entry, and clearance requirements

(a) Unlawful acts:

It is unlawful— (1) to fail to comply with section 1431, 1433, or 1434 of this title or section 60105 of title 46;

(2) to present or transmit, electronically or otherwise, any forged, altered, or false document, paper, information, data or manifest to the Customs Service under section 1431, 1433(d), or 1434 of this title or section 60105 of title 46 without revealing the facts;

(3) to fail to make entry or to obtain clearance as required by section 1434 or 1644 of this title, section 60105 of title 46, or section 1644a(b)(1) or (c)(1) of this title; or

(4) to fail to comply with, or violate, any regulation prescribed under any section referred to in any of paragraphs (1) through (3).

(b) Civil penalty Any master, person in charge of a vehicle, or aircraft pilot who commits any violation listed in subsection (a) is liable for a civil penalty of $5,000 for the first violation, and $10,000 for each subsequent violation, and any conveyance used in connection with any such violation is subject to seizure and forfeiture.


(c) Criminal penalty In addition to being liable for a civil penalty under subsection (b), any master, person in charge of a vehicle, or aircraft pilot who intentionally commits any violation listed in subsection (a) is, upon conviction, liable for a fine of not more than $2,000 or imprisonment for 1 year, or both; except that if the conveyance has, or is discovered to have had, on board any merchandise (other than sea stores or the equivalent for conveyances other than vessels) the importation of which into the United States is prohibited, such individual is liable for an additional fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or both.


(d) Additional civil penalty If any merchandise (other than sea stores or the equivalent for conveyances other than a vessel) is imported or brought into the United States in or aboard a conveyance which was not properly reported or entered, the master, person in charge of a vehicle, or aircraft pilot shall be liable for a civil penalty equal to the value of the merchandise and the merchandise may be seized and forfeited unless properly entered by the importer or consignee. If the merchandise consists of any controlled substance listed in section 1584 of this title, the master, individual in charge of a vehicle, or pilot shall be liable to the penalties prescribed in that section.


(e) Civil penalties for postal shipments (1) Civil penalty A civil penalty shall be imposed against the United States Postal Service if the Postal Service accepts a shipment in violation of section 1415(a)(3)(K)(vii)(I) of this title.


(2) Modification of civil penalty (A) In generalU.S. Customs and Border Protection shall reduce or dismiss a civil penalty imposed pursuant to paragraph (1) if U.S. Customs and Border Protection determines that the United States Postal Service— (i) has a low error rate in compliance with section 1415(a)(3)(K) of this title;

(ii) is cooperating with U.S. Customs and Border Protection with respect to the violation of section 1415(a)(3)(K)(vii)(I) of this title; or

(iii) has taken remedial action to prevent future violations of section 1415(a)(3)(K)(vii)(I) of this title.


(B) Written notification U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall issue a written notification to the Postal Service with respect to each exercise of the authority of subparagraph (A) to reduce or dismiss a civil penalty imposed pursuant to paragraph (1).



(3) Ongoing lack of complianceIf U.S. Customs and Border Protection determines that the United States Postal Service— (A) has repeatedly committed violations of section 1415(a)(3)(K)(vii)(I) of this title,

(B) has failed to cooperate with U.S. Customs and Border Protection with respect to violations of section 1415(a)(3)(K)(vii)(I) of this title, and

(C) has an increasing error rate in compliance with section 1415(a)(3)(K) of this title,

civil penalties may be imposed against the United States Postal Service until corrective action, satisfactory to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, is taken.






<END QUOTE>

[Cynara]

In November 800 + boats will leave san Diego for Mexico. No permits required. Check out latitude38. Com and the ba ha ha

[jalmberg]

We just left. Never even thought about it.

[sailingharry]

It is a varied world out there. In the last two years, I have left the US for Canada several times, left Canada for the US several times, left Canada for France, and left France for Canada. I have never checked out of any country, I have never been asked for checkout papers, I have never been advised to obtain check out papers, and the only times I have ever seen an actual official is arriving in France from Canada, and arriving in Canada from France. Although curiously, I had already checked into Canada on return from France by phone (and had our clearance number) when folks from the local office who saw us motoring in came to see us and insisted on doing it again. I think they were bored! [emoji16]

I don't doubt there are countries that require an exit. I also know from experience that there are several (3 is several) that do not normally provide exit papers. I am sure that if you wished, all three probably have some method to do so -- but some, like the US, might be a bit challenging for a sailboat to find and get to one of the few Port of Entry with a physical presence.

As they say, YMMV. But for sure, there are no hard and fast rules as to "How it's always done."

Oh, to add one more. I was crew on a delivery from Bahamas to US in 2018, and so don't know details of what the skipper may have done before our departure, but I am unaware of checking out of the Bahamas. So that would make four countries.

[AiniA]

One of the great 'joys' of long distance cruising is dealing with all of the bureaucracy involved in coming and going between countries. On one hand you have all the rules, on the other hand you have the situation where the officials you deal with do not understand their own rules - the US is the worst for this. Easiest entry/leave was in northern Guadeloupe where you checked yourself in (and out if you knew when you were leaving) at a computer in the back of a tourist gift shop. The gift ship owner signed your form. Most complicated was Indonesia where we went with a rally that, in theory, had made all the arrangements for the hundred or so boats. On top of that, we had to go the consulate in Darwin to get visas and deal with 23! officials in Timor on arrival. They were all as friendly and helpful as possible but there were 23 of them. When we wanted to leave from Bali we had to go to four offices. At one office the young man said he would take me to the next office on his motor scooter, so the people were great but the system ridiculous. Most expensive was Australia, more than $500 for visas and sanitary inspection. Cheapest was France. We paid the gift shop guy five euros but that was for him, not the government. At a French government office it was free (St Martin). Hint for St Martin, use the French bridge and enter France. The Dutch charge for their bridge and entry/exit.

[Zanshin]

@AiniA - I'm in Deshaies right now, cleared in at Le Pelican the day before yesterday; that's the place you mentioned. All of the French islands use the same computer program and all of them have stores/coffee shops for clearance.

While the French side bridge is free, much of the time is broken and not working, plus the width and draft limitations are such that even catamarans run aground when trying to transit. The Dutch fee was $20 for one in/out transit. That's a fair price.