Propane conversion

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

No, a manual valve is not permitted in the cabin under ABYC. A manual valve would require two extra connections near the stove which are not permitted inside the cabin. If you can reach a manual valve inside your propane locker from the stove area then the manual valve is acceptable in which case the valve on the tank would suffice ... Can't see that happening.

ABYC generally produce sound recommendations, but there are other, equally valid, and in some cases arguably better standards.

Some standards require a manual valve in the cabin, others require a propane “fuse”. Some require a means to test the system for leaks. These are just some of the options and all of these are valuable in my opinion, but are not required by ABYC.

In practice there are a multitude of safety devices that can be added to a propane system. Installing all of these would be overkill, but a sensible mix will ensure a safe installation.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Ben- I actually love your simple way of approaching your boat and much of what you’ve done. I followed your build articles and blog from the beginning.

And a simple valve is great.

BUT… Where is your valve? Inside the boat? Or in the locker- and do you turn it off at the bottle every time? If the latter- you are correct- perfectly safe and reliable.

But if your valve is inside the boat you always have pressurized propane inside, which if it leaks….

"If it leaks" is a really long-shot scenario for a properly installed and maintained valve designed for gas.
I can easily turn off the valve at the tank, and frequently do when leaving the boat, but I have full confidence in the ball valve I put IN THE CABIN, because I installed it and tested it myself, and can test it whenever I choose.
Since my propane line is one piece from the lazarette to the ball valve, and it's inside a PVC conduit, I'm simply not worried about its chafing on anything.
Thanks for reading the mag and the blogs: keep an eye on the blog over the summer, I'm hoping to ramp up the postings.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

A quote from Charlie Johnson ....

"You are terribly mis-informed about the workings of the ABYC.

First of all, ABYC is a non-profit organization with a paid staff of about 17 people. The Standards are produced by about 350 volunteers in various Project Technical Committees according to discipline. The PTCs are made up of boat builders, surveyors, UL, USCG, marine equipment manufacturers, marine electricians, etc. and is very closely controlled so that no segment becomes dominant.

The PTC meetings are open to the public and anybody that is interested can be put on the mailing list to be informed when a Standard is going through the review cycle. Any interested person can comment on a Standard, propose changes, and take part in the meeting to resolve the comments. Any interested person.

The Standards are reviewed periodically to ensure that they are in alignment with technological changes. As a case in point; HF isolation transformers do not have an electrostatic shield. Their construction and certification were reviewed, and it was determined that they did not require an electrostatic shield and the applicable Standard was revised to accept them. This sort of review and change does not occur immediately, remember the PTCs are made up of volunteers with day jobs.


Hopefully this clears up you misconceptions regarding the ABYC.
__________________
Charlie Johnson
ABYC Master Technician
JTB Marine Corporation "

By your own admission, the ABYC is made up of "...marine equipment manufacturers, marine electricians.." in short, a list of people who have an interest in selling you their product or service, and making it really convoluted so you'll have to hire them to do it rather than it being a simple DIY job.
Nice try, sir, but what you're involved in is a racket, plain and simple.

[goboatingnow]

All commercial representative bodies have an altruistic and a partisan side. Nmea is no different.

To be truely independent a body must be set up and financed outside of any specific industry group. The RCD /ISO standards come to mind , manufacturers make representations of course but they are not directly involved in the decision process.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

But it says...

1.8 CYLINDER VALVES AND SAFETY
DEVICES
1.8.1 A readily accessible manual or electrically
operated (solenoid) shut-off valve shall be installed in the
low or high pressure line at the fuel supply (see A-L12 for
valve location), The valve(s) or its control must be
operable from the vicinity of the appliance(s) in the event
of a fire at any appliance(s), If the cylinder valve is
readily accessible from the vicinity of the appliance, the
shut-off valve on the supply line is not required.

I don't think I said "in the cabin". Neither of my examples was in the cabin.

I was being descriptive. I also says...

"1.9.5.6 Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths of tubing, piping, or hose from the regulating device, solenoid
valve, or leak detector to the appliance, or to the flexible section at the appliance."

A valve in-line, outside of the propane locker and between the locker and the appliance would make the line discontinuous.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Benz

By your own admission, the ABYC is made up of "...marine equipment manufacturers, marine electricians.." in short, a list of people who have an interest in selling you their product or service, and making it really convoluted so you'll have to hire them to do it rather than it being a simple DIY job.
Nice try, sir, but what you're involved in is a racket, plain and simple.

Please tell me where my profit is ?

I guess NFPA, CE, NFTA, UL, CSA, ABS, CGA, DNV, RCD, ULC, IEC, IEEE,
ANSI, AMSE, AWS, ASTM and of course ABYC are completely redundant to some one who already knows it all. Perhaps not for the rest of us.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I was being descriptive. I also says...

"1.9.5.6 Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths of tubing, piping, or hose from the regulating device, solenoid
valve, or leak detector to the appliance, or to the flexible section at the appliance."

A valve in-line, outside of the propane locker and between the locker and the appliance would make the line discontinuous.

You're not listening (or more properly reading for content)!

In the ABYC document -
A readily accessible manual or electrically
operated (solenoid) shut-off valve shall be installed in the
low or high pressure line at the fuel supply

The manual valve is in the LPG locker. Its control must be in the vicinity of the appliance.


Two other posters have described ways to do this, using a wire or rod control. The pass through would have to be made vapor tight.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Benz

What I don't understand is: if the batteries are out, or discharged, how does the electrical solenoid work?

I carry sufficient parts aboard to completely bypass the solenoid. I consider that a worst case but still plausible casualty. I also carry a complete spare regulator, cannibalized from an abandoned home barbecue grill. Making the stove work is a rather critical piece of gear!

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by cal40john

You're not listening (or more properly reading for content)!

In the ABYC document -
A readily accessible manual or electrically
operated (solenoid) shut-off valve shall be installed in the
low or high pressure line at the fuel supply

The manual valve is in the LPG locker. Its control must be in the vicinity of the appliance.


Two other posters have described ways to do this, using a wire or rod control. The pass through would have to be made vapor tight.

As long as fuel supply line from indise the locker to appliance is "continuous".

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

As long as fuel supply line from locker to appliance is "continuous".

No disagreement there. He has been advocating for a manual valve in the locker with a control near the stove since his first post on the topic. He has not been talking about the gas line outside of the locker.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by cal40john

No disagreement there. He has been advocating for a manual valve in the locker with a control near the stove since his first post on the topic. He has not been talking about the gas line outside of the locker.

I didn't see that. So why is he against ABYC which you suggest he agrees with ?

[goboatingnow]

I see no issue with a manual shutoff near the stove

[wsmurdoch]

Benz has his shut off valve in the cabin. [from post #47, "I can easily turn off the valve at the tank, and frequently do when leaving the boat, but I have full confidence in the ball valve I put IN THE CABIN, because I installed it and tested it myself, and can test it whenever I choose.] His installation is not in conformance with the ABYC standards.

Benz can not easily use a 12V electrically operated (solenoid) valve as his shut off valve because he does not have a 12V electrical system on his boat. [from post #13, "My boat has no batteries at all, and I cook safely and victoriously with propane."] Thus he uses a manually operated ball valve as his shut off valve.

I pointed out that the ABYC standard allows a manually operated shut off valve installed at the fuel supply, whether that be in a LPG locker or or outside, so long as the manual valve can be operated from near the stove. I gave two examples of how that could be accomplished. [post #47]

Benz appears to be satisfied with his installation although it is not in conformance with the ABYC standards and although it introduces the possibility of a LPG leak into the cabin of his boat from a hose failure, leakage from at least one additional pipework fitting, or leakage from a failure of the stem seal of the valve.

While I respect Benz's opinion (and the opinion of others on this forum), I value the opinion of the writers of the ABYC standards more highly, and I suggest that he move his shut off valve to his LPG locker and operate it with a bowdin cable from a location near the stove. His existing conduit might provide a convenient route for the cable.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I didn't see that. So why is he against ABYC which you suggest he agrees with ?

You've got the wrong guy. wsmurdoch is saying an electric valve is not required, it can be manual in the locker. It's another guy that's arguing ABYC is bad with you.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I see no issue with a manual shutoff near the stove

What does the ISO standard say?

I know my 1985 French built Beneteau had a manual gas shutoff valve in a hanging locker near the galley. The gas supply was plumbed with flexible hose from the locker to a copper pipe, then copper pipe to the shutoff valve, then copper pipe to the near the stove, and a flexible hose to the gimbaled stove. Four extra connections inside the boat, and probably more expensive than a single hose, so it must have been required by some Euro standard. My US surveyor never mentioned it, and I left it open for the 17 years I had the boat.

I did install a solenoid valve in the locker which was connected to a sniffer under the stove. Over time the sniffer got more and more sensitive, and when the admiral couldn't cook flambe, it got replaced.

From a safety standpoint, as a trained engineer I felt the boat was at or above the intent of the ABYC standards. My biggest concern was wear in the flexible hose at the stove (which I preventatively replaced after 10 years, and that monitored by the sniffer. I was happier with the copper pipe going through hidden bulkheads and behind liners than I would have been with a continuous hose. I never looked closely at the connections to see if they were flare or compression, because if they don't leak, I don't care.