Propane conversion

[Benz]

Originally Posted by chris95040

A moment ago you weren't imaginative enough to think through how a cutoff solenoid would provide safety in the event of power failure (answer, its normally closed, obviously) and now you want to call people sheep for following ABYC guidelines.

Here's the question: can a solenoid get stuck open? How would you know if it did?

[wsmurdoch]

Originally Posted by Benz

Here's the question: can a solenoid get stuck open? How would you know if it did?

I would know it was stuck because I would not hear the "thump" that I hear as the LP gas solenoid opens and closes but more importantly because my stove burner would not extinguish when I turn the LP gas switch to off which I do before turning off the burner control.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by Benz

Here's the question: can a solenoid get stuck open? How would you know if it did?

Now you're using your imagination! Its true, solenoids can stick open (and joints can leak, but I digress...).

And using the solenoid as an instantly accessible, light-indicated way of closing off the fuel source from the galley does not preclude you from additionally shutting off the valve on the tank when convenient to do so.

ABYC understands the probabilistic nature of the universe and makes recommendations based on reducing the likelihood of bad things happening across the boating population. But like wearing masks during a global respiratory virus pandemic, self-obsessed folks are going to have a hard time understanding the rationale.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Benz

Here's the question: can a solenoid get stuck open? How would you know if it did?

In my experience, it’s very very very rare that they get stuck open, they almost always fail or get stuck in the closed position. The way the solenoid is built, there is a spring constantly trying to close the solenoid and it’s the electro magnet action of the solenoid that has to overcome the spring to open the valve. That is why losing power instantly closes the valve.

[wholybee]

Given their importance as a safety device, the valves fail rather frequently. I've had them fail both open and closed.

In the middle of a two week passage, I removed it from the system until I could source another. They are impossible to find in Indonesia BTW. I now carry a spare.

I suppose you could install a ball valve bypass in the propane locker and mostly still meet safely standards while retaining the solenoid.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by chris95040

Now you're using your imagination! Its true, solenoids can stick open (and joints can leak, but I digress...).

And using the solenoid as an instantly accessible, light-indicated way of closing off the fuel source from the galley does not preclude you from additionally shutting off the valve on the tank when convenient to do so.

ABYC understands the probabilistic nature of the universe and makes recommendations based on reducing the likelihood of bad things happening across the boating population. But like wearing masks during a global respiratory virus pandemic, self-obsessed folks are going to have a hard time understanding the rationale.

So you would rather, because the ABYC told you to, trust to an electric device made from metal parts in a locker that is usually damp (because it's vented) rather than a UL-listed ball valve, in a dry location, properly installed? Sure, improperly installed joints can leak, but ridiculous strictures for a long-shot "what if" scenario are, well, ridiculous.
What ABYC understands is the business model of their racket, which requires that they set themselves up as the only experts, with the only answers, and get everyone else to believe that they possess all knowledge, so they can make more money. It's a sound business model, and works for other certification rackets, but it's a racket nonetheless.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by pcmm

While not " the law" they effectively become them as they are the standards to which boats are surveyed. and good luck getting insurance without a good survey. A lot of what ABYC does is far superior and much safer than EU standards. Propane and seacocks are 2 that I can think of immediately. Sorry but every joint in a propane line is a potential leak point and ABYC has it right stating that there should be no joints other than at the appliance all Tee's etc. should be in the sealed propane locker.

Absolute rot. Eu standards are defined by a paid for ISO process and the resulting standard has world wide standing

ABYC is a bunch of manufacturers representatives

Eu gas standards are better , more comprehensive and legally enforceable. Don’t get me started on the North American BS seacock nonsense.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by pcmm

While not " the law" they effectively become them as they are the standards to which boats are surveyed. and good luck getting insurance without a good survey. A lot of what ABYC does is far superior and much safer than EU standards. Propane and seacocks are 2 that I can think of immediately. Sorry but every joint in a propane line is a potential leak point and ABYC has it right stating that there should be no joints other than at the appliance all Tee's etc. should be in the sealed propane locker.

Interesting thanks. The only real rules in the UK are for inland waters like rivers and canals. However, they allow brazing as a way of joining pipes.

What we don't do is toxic antifoul paint, not good for the critters you see

Some EU countries are more strick, but it tends to be about registration and equipment rather than build standards.

Pete

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

I would know it was stuck because I would not hear the "thump" that I hear as the LP gas solenoid opens and closes but more importantly because my stove burner would not extinguish when I turn the LP gas switch to off which I do before turning off the burner control.

Good point.
Turning the gas off, at the tank [by solenoid or valve], prior to turning the gas off [after the flame extinguishes], at the appliance, drains the supply hoses of gas.


A few of us might benefit from a quick read:
"A psychologist explains why negativity dominates your daily thoughts, and what to do about it"
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[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Interesting thanks. The only real rules in the UK are for inland waters like rivers and canals. However, they allow brazing as a way of joining pipes.



What we don't do is toxic antifoul paint, not good for the critters you see



Some EU countries are more strick, but it tends to be about registration and equipment rather than build standards.



Pete

You perhaps don’t realise that under U.K. “ retained law “ at present all the ISO standards used in the RCD have legal binding status in the U.K.

Hence outside U.K. inland waters where the boat safety scheme apllies , the standards associated with iso gas regulations apply in the U.K. by force of law.

Eu countries all must abide by the same gas installation rules and they do.

You might actually read ISO 10239, so you can be informed as to the strict U.K. and EU gas regulations for boats.

Here’s the content page to help you

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Benz

So you would rather, because the ABYC told you to, trust to an electric device made from metal parts in a locker that is usually damp (because it's vented) rather than a UL-listed ball valve, in a dry location, properly installed? Sure, improperly installed joints can leak, but ridiculous strictures for a long-shot "what if" scenario are, well, ridiculous.

What ABYC understands is the business model of their racket, which requires that they set themselves up as the only experts, with the only answers, and get everyone else to believe that they possess all knowledge, so they can make more money. It's a sound business model, and works for other certification rackets, but it's a racket nonetheless.

Ben- I actually love your simple way of approaching your boat and much of what you’ve done. I followed your build articles and blog from the beginning.

And a simple valve is great.

BUT… Where is your valve? Inside the boat? Or in the locker- and do you turn it off at the bottle every time? If the latter- you are correct- perfectly safe and reliable.

But if your valve is inside the boat you always have pressurized propane inside, which if it leaks….

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Benz

What ABYC understands is the business model of their racket, which requires that they set themselves up as the only experts, with the only answers, and get everyone else to believe that they possess all knowledge, so they can make more money. It's a sound business model, and works for other certification rackets, but it's a racket nonetheless.

A quote from Charlie Johnson ....

"You are terribly mis-informed about the workings of the ABYC.

First of all, ABYC is a non-profit organization with a paid staff of about 17 people. The Standards are produced by about 350 volunteers in various Project Technical Committees according to discipline. The PTCs are made up of boat builders, surveyors, UL, USCG, marine equipment manufacturers, marine electricians, etc. and is very closely controlled so that no segment becomes dominant.

The PTC meetings are open to the public and anybody that is interested can be put on the mailing list to be informed when a Standard is going through the review cycle. Any interested person can comment on a Standard, propose changes, and take part in the meeting to resolve the comments. Any interested person.

The Standards are reviewed periodically to ensure that they are in alignment with technological changes. As a case in point; HF isolation transformers do not have an electrostatic shield. Their construction and certification were reviewed, and it was determined that they did not require an electrostatic shield and the applicable Standard was revised to accept them. This sort of review and change does not occur immediately, remember the PTCs are made up of volunteers with day jobs.


Hopefully this clears up you misconceptions regarding the ABYC.
__________________
Charlie Johnson
ABYC Master Technician
JTB Marine Corporation "

[wsmurdoch]

To me it looks like ABYC allows either a manual or an electrically operated shut off valve in either the LPG locker or with a LPG cylinder mounted outside the boat so long as it is operable from near the stove.

In my memory there is a photo in one of Lyn Pardey's books of a round valve handle in the galley and connected by a long shaft to a gate of globe valve at their propane tank. Also, I've chartered a boat with a ball valve in the propane locker operated with a bowden cable that ended in the galley in a pull out knob sort of like the choke control on an old car... pull the knob to open the valve and push it back in to close the valve.

See 1.8.1 in https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....A-01.1993.pdf

I guess I just don't understand the fuss. But, it is not my area of expertise.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

To me it looks like ABYC allows either a manual or an electrically operated shut off valve in either the LPG locker or with a LPG cylinder mounted outside the boat so long as it is operable from near the stove.

No, a manual valve is not permitted in the cabin under ABYC. A manual valve would require two extra connections near the stove which are not permitted inside the cabin. If you can reach a manual valve inside your propane locker from the stove area then the manual valve is acceptable in which case the valve on the tank would suffice ... Can't see that happening.

[wsmurdoch]

But it says...

1.8 CYLINDER VALVES AND SAFETY
DEVICES
1.8.1 A readily accessible manual or electrically
operated (solenoid) shut-off valve shall be installed in the
low or high pressure line at the fuel supply (see A-L12 for
valve location), The valve(s) or its control must be
operable from the vicinity of the appliance(s) in the event
of a fire at any appliance(s), If the cylinder valve is
readily accessible from the vicinity of the appliance, the
shut-off valve on the supply line is not required.

I don't think I said "in the cabin". Neither of my examples was in the cabin.