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**noelex 77** · 31-05-2022, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKA-None

So am I hearing that any standards organization is self serving rot?

Unfortunately, many standards increase the cost to consumers while achieving little. Some even effectively decrease the quality of goods and services. In my opinion, the CE yacht standards and anchor certification classifications are a couple of examples of poor standards that are relevant to this forum.

On the other hand, the ABYC standards are an example of an excellent series of standards that have advanced the quality of yacht construction, but even here it is important to understand that other jurisdictions have different standards and in some cases these are better or simply different.

goboatingnow · 31-05-2022, 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm

What so BS about a seacock standard that prescribes the side loading that a seacock must survive, that the base must be flanged, that the threads types must match. I'll take that standard over the EU allowance of BRASS alloys (and inevitable non matching threads) and the assumption that the useful service life of a seacock is 5 years. Not safe in my view at all.

Sorry I completely disagree about the gas standards. Everything I see is dependant on many many joints all not leaking. The ABYC standard is soo much simpler to achieve, maintain and honestly more idiot proof. its simple...no joints in the enclosed space except at the appliance. a gauge at the tank to check for leaks and yes a solenoid to make turning off the gas Easy and routine. having the solenoid also has the advantage of turning to gas off OUTSIDE the boat! from a switch that is NOT right at the stove where the fire is! a manual valve at the stove is vulnerable in the event of a fire at the galley. Sorry EU just doesn't seem safer at all. Which it odd as the Europeans generally do things more sensibly than us in NA!

Nothing wrong with DNZ brass European boats in the med have 20 + years on their seacocks. The reason they fail on US boats is the appalling ABYC binding standards

Benz · 31-05-2022, 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKA-None

So am I hearing that any standards organization is self serving rot?

Even so.

**GordMay** · 31-05-2022, 04:59

Some people are distrustful of everything - even of chickens.
They can't even cross the road, without having their motives questioned.

pcmm · 31-05-2022, 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKA-None

So am I hearing that any standards organization is self serving rot?

No, what you are really hearing is someone commenting on WHY they think safety standards don't apply to them! Boating is Odd, on land electrical and plumbing codes are the MINIMUM standard that you have to acheive to be safe and pass inspection and complete jobs, but for some reason on the water people think that ABYC and EU/CE are the ultimate IF they want to get there. Most of these standards are developed after study over periods of time and represent a level of safety, but on the water people seem to think that complying is "optional" I just don't get it

ABYC has people employed to do the work, no different than CSA, or UL. People should be compensated for their efforts to develop things that make the rest of us safer. not sure why it would be considered "self serving rot"???

goboatingnow · 31-05-2022, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm

No, what you are really hearing is someone commenting on WHY they think safety standards don't apply to them! Boating is Odd, on land electrical and plumbing codes are the MINIMUM standard that you have to acheive to be safe and pass inspection and complete jobs, but for some reason on the water people think that ABYC and EU/CE are the ultimate IF they want to get there. Most of these standards are developed after study over periods of time and represent a level of safety, but on the water people seem to think that complying is "optional" I just don't get it

ABYC has people employed to do the work, no different than CSA, or UL. People should be compensated for their efforts to develop things that make the rest of us safer. not sure why it would be considered "self serving rot"???

Land based standards have legal backing and inspection. ABYC is not a legal standard it’s merely a “ Recommendation”. Even the EU rcd largely only applies to when first built. Most of the requirements do not apply if the private owner changes things ( they do in some cases apply where a professional installer is used )

Secondly they often contradict one another , ISO has requires shut offs near the stove while ABYC wants unbroken pipe So clearly which is better ?

pcmm · 31-05-2022, 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Land based standards have legal backing and inspection. ABYC is not a legal standard it’s merely a “ Recommendation”. Even the EU rcd largely only applies to when first built. Most of the requirements do not apply if the private owner changes things ( they do in some cases apply where a professional installer is used )

Secondly they often contradict one another , ISO has requires shut offs near the stove while ABYC wants unbroken pipe So clearly which is better ?

You miss the point though. Standards are standards for a reason. and Good luck getting insurance if your propane isn't installed to ABYC and seacocks are incorrect. A surveyor will flag those items and insurance will then REQUIRE those items fixed to be covered. Been through that just recently with a clean survey with 2 "recommendations" that every insurance company I shopped REQUIRED in order to bind insurnance! 1 was an ELCI main AC breaker and the other was finish my DC AC ground bonding.

BTW turning off your propane at the tank is much safer than at the stove!

boatpoker · 31-05-2022, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

ISO has requires shut offs near the stove while ABYC wants unbroken pipe So clearly which is better ?

Thats not quite accurate. ABYC wants unbroken fuel line AND a shut-off in the vicinity of the appliance

pcmm · 31-05-2022, 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Thats not quite accurate. ABYC wants unbroken fuel line AND a shut-off in the vicinity of the appliance

To be clear though, the "shut off near the appliance" still actually shuts off the propane at the tank,

**noelex 77** · 31-05-2022, 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm

You miss the point though. Standards are standards for a reason. and Good luck getting insurance if your propane isn't installed to ABYC and seacocks are incorrect. A surveyor will flag those items and insurance will then REQUIRE those items fixed to be covered.

If your boat was surveyed in Europe it would be pointed out that it does not comply with the requirement to have a manual shut off valve in the line before the stove.

This is one of the problems with these standards. The conflicting requirements can create headaches for boat owners.

pcmm · 31-05-2022, 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by noelex 77

If your boat was surveyed in Europe it would be pointed out that it does not comply with the requirement to have a manual shut off valve in the line before the stove.

This is one of the problems with these standards. The conflicting requirements can create headaches for boat owners.

Fair point, but the Original Poster's location is in North America! We're playing in ABYC territory.

goboatingnow · 31-05-2022, 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm

Fair point, but the Original Poster's location is in North America! We're playing in ABYC territory.

My point was addressing the comment as to why people didn’t believe they applied to them , partially it’s because there are competing ideas of what’s safe as can be seen by differing standards bodies.

Benz · 31-05-2022, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmm

You miss the point though. Standards are standards for a reason. and Good luck getting insurance if your propane isn't installed to ABYC and seacocks are incorrect. A surveyor will flag those items and insurance will then REQUIRE those items fixed to be covered. Been through that just recently with a clean survey with 2 "recommendations" that every insurance company I shopped REQUIRED in order to bind insurnance! 1 was an ELCI main AC breaker and the other was finish my DC AC ground bonding.

BTW turning off your propane at the tank is much safer than at the stove!

You have just highlighted the ecosystem of corruption in play here: ABYC "recommends," and the insurance companies (which are all a scam anyway), REQUIRE. That elevates the ABYC's opinion to something more than an opinion, consolidating their chokehold on their niche in the industry. "Toe the line or fail your survey; use our standards or your boats won't sell;" it's the same business model made successful by the mob.