SELF TACKING HELP

[Clean Hull]

I am a new owner of a Freedom 35 ketch, which I am refurbishing throughout.

Having nearly finished the saloon, heads, etc I am re-rigging as before my purchase she had been left three years unattended due to the PO having passed away, the sheets and halyards as you would expect mildewed and in poor condition, and I am servicing all blocks, pully's and clutches.

Not having any previous experience with a self-tacking system, but fully comprehending its purpose would like some help and advice as to the practical operation.
It would appear from what I can gather from a friend of the PO that he would lock the traveler centrally and only use the mainsheet, or unlock both ends letting the lines fly which also caused problems.

Neither of the above seems ideal in fact negating the purpose of the self-tacking advantages. Apparently, it felt better than the main slamming across.

I sail singlehanded mostly and look at how to use the system to the best advantage without having to leave the cockpit and do adjustments both port and starboard resetting the traveler, possibly bringing the stops aft closer to the cockpit.
All comments help and advise very welcome.

[Greatest Lakes]

What is the size of your headsail? LP number %?

[psk125]

The Freedom 35 cat-ketch does not have any jibs. Going upwind, the wishbone booms should probably be set up centered on the traveler, just to keep things simple. You could perhaps ease the travelers down a touch if there was too much heel or weather helm. Downwind, you would want the the travelers eased out to keep the leeches tighter than they would be if the traveler was centered. (Setting up a boom vang might be tricky on a wishbone boom.)

[Greatest Lakes]

You just want to operate them both together? They would already be relatively self tacking unless you are running downwind.

[Clean Hull]

Originally Posted by psk125

The Freedom 35 cat-ketch does not have any jibs. Going upwind, the wishbone booms should probably be set up centered on the traveler, just to keep things simple. You could perhaps ease the travelers down a touch if there was too much heel or weather helm. Downwind, you would want the the travelers eased out to keep the leeches tighter than they would be if the traveler was centered. (Setting up a boom vang might be tricky on a wishbone boom.)

She does not have wishbones.

[Clean Hull]

Originally Posted by Greatest Lakes

You just want to operate them both together? They would already be relatively self tacking unless you are running downwind.

Perhaps I am not making myself clear, having never had a self-tacking system I am seeking advice on how best to use and control the system.

When on the wind and wishing to tack how do I incorporate the ST system along with the mainsheet, it at all.

All sheets and halyards are controlled from the cockpit, except for the traveler sheeve control lines, to operate them means leaving the cockpit to either release or set the jammers on both the port and starboard sides.
Single-handed makes this a very difficult task to perform.
The PO i understand left the traveler free only using the main sheet when tacking once thru the wind, often creating tangled lines, and when the mood took him, for whatever reason left it centered.

What do others who have the same system do?

I would like to use the ST system without leaving the cockpit which means leading the control lines aft and to hand in the cockpit.

Bearing in mind I have never used an ST system does the following make any sense.

Changing tack for example from a port to a starboard tack:
Release the starboard ST jammer so the traveler can slide to port when the helm is put down to go thru the wind.
Control the speed of the boom to avoid slamming with either the starboard ST control line or the mainsheet or both of them.
Take up the slack on the port ST control line.

I am looking for the experience of others who use the system.

[psk125]

A photograph might help us better understand what you are working with. If the sails have standard booms, then centering the traveler would still make sense for upwind work. With the traveler centered you would not have to release any jammer when tacking, and the traveler would not be doing any slamming around. Turning the boat smoothly and quickly through the tack until the sail fills should keep the boom from bouncing around too much too. For downwind work, easing the traveler car out would still make sense, though adding a boom vang would help downwind as well. A well-thought out traveler that has control lines with sufficient purchase should allow you to adjust the traveler position whenever you want- you shouldn't have to release it prior to a tack.

[Clean Hull]

Originally Posted by Greatest Lakes

You just want to operate them both together? They would already be relatively self tacking unless you are running downwind.

I thought i had replied

[Clean Hull]

Originally Posted by psk125

A photograph might help us better understand what you are working with. If the sails have standard booms, then centering the traveler would still make sense for upwind work. With the traveler centered you would not have to release any jammer when tacking, and the traveler would not be doing any slamming around. Turning the boat smoothly and quickly through the tack until the sail fills should keep the boom from bouncing around too much too. For downwind work, easing the traveler car out would still make sense, though adding a boom vang would help downwind as well. A well-thought out traveler that has control lines with sufficient purchase should allow you to adjust the traveler position whenever you want- you shouldn't have to release it prior to a tack.

Yes, I have standard booms, and yes I agree I can tack upwind with her as I used to do with a genoa, working sheet, and lazy sheet, with the traveler locked central but doesn't tacking when using the main sheet only to slow the worst of the sail changing tack, as they are quite large sail areas, take away the idea of 'self-tacking' or is it only practical in calmer airs.
Jibing downwind is no problem, centre the main and jibe thru the wind using the mizzen, aslo very large, which has the traveler control easy to hand.

If the traveler is locked during upwind tacking what is the purpose of the traveler and long track?
If I can get access from the cockpit to the traveler lines i could then self tack.

What do others do?

I am most obliged to you for your response

[Sparx]

I am understanding you have the Freedom 35 Cat Ketch, two masts with no jib. Your boat is equipped with conventional booms that have travelors with locking stops on the track, correct?

First of all congratulations on a very capable boat. I am big fan of the cat ketch rig, and have owned two of them.

My first thought is that the cat ketch rig has some subtle nuances. It is these nuances that make the rig such a joy to sail. Best thing to do is start by centering the travelers for up wind work, and then go get some experience sailing her. By paying close attention you will soon discover the nuances. Among the subtle points you will find the boat does its highest windward work with the mizzen boom nearly centered but the main wants to be out a bit more and producing a slot effect of air flow over the mizzen. So the main might benefit with its travelor open a bit. As the wind builds having both travelors eased a bit will help keep the boat on her feet and pulling powerfully. Best speed will be found by easing both travelors when reaching. As a general rule set the mizzen first for the heading, then trim the main for best speed.

To get the absolute best speed from the boat will require frequent travelor adjustment. For that reason I would run the travelor stop controls into the cockpit. However if you dont have this feature the boat will sail fine as you get experience with it, then you can decide if you need the lines run to the cockpit.

For tacking in a breeze, pull the mizzen in very close to centerline and it will push the bow into wind. A light touch on the helm will bring the bow through the wind. The main will be fluttering during this time and should come over to the new tack with no drama. Get on your new course, easing the mizzen as required then trim the main.

It is downwind work where there is potential for hard jibes that could damage equipenent. With experience these jibes can been done with out drama. The general technique is to center the main and then the mizzen just before turning the boat with the helm. Use preventers when then wind is up.

Hopefully helps get you started. My recommendation is to run travelor and preventor controls into the cockpit.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Clean Hull

Yes, I have standard booms, and yes I agree I can tack upwind with her as I used to do with a genoa, working sheet, and lazy sheet, with the traveler locked central but doesn't tacking when using the main sheet only to slow the worst of the sail changing tack, as they are quite large sail areas, take away the idea of 'self-tacking' or is it only practical in calmer airs.
Jibing downwind is no problem, centre the main and jibe thru the wind using the mizzen, aslo very large, which has the traveler control easy to hand.

If the traveler is locked during upwind tacking what is the purpose of the traveler and long track?
If I can get access from the cockpit to the traveler lines i could then self tack.

What do others do?

I am most obliged to you for your response

I don't have cat ketch experience, but you haven't received replies by anyone with experience so I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I don't understand what you said I have put into bold. If I think I know what you're saying, this shouldn't be an issue unless you're trying to tack beam reach to beam reach.

I would start by not altering the traveler lines until you have sailed the boat.
Different people have different ideas on how to sail, one person might leave the traveler centered at all times, others might want the sail twist perfect. If you decide you need to tweak the traveler to tack then change it to cockpit controls, I don't see that this modification has to happen before the boat is in sailing condition.

Start by trying to sail upwind and tack with the travelers centered. Decide if that's an issue. If not you're done.

I would assume that the main traveler should be somewhat to leeward to not backwind the mizzen. My next step would be to set the traveler lines in the jammers to stop the traveler car before it hits the end of the track. If that tangles, maybe experiment with how far you can let it travel before lines start tangling in the pulleys.

To respond to what is the traveler for - Close on the wind the boom vang typically doesn't have enough purchase to remove the twist in the sail. So the traveler is more like the mainsheet, adjusting the angle of the sail to the wind, and the mainsheet is more like a vang pulling the boom down, which pulls in the top of the sail. Put some telltales on the main, some on the leech. Set the traveler so the lower telltales are flowing, then pull on the mainsheet to pull the boom down, tightening the leech mostly up high, until the top telltale just stops flowing.

I see someone with experience posted while I was composing

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Clean Hull

Yes, I have standard booms, and yes I agree I can tack upwind with her as I used to do with a genoa, working sheet, and lazy sheet, with the traveler locked central
If the traveler is locked during upwind tacking what is the purpose of the traveler and long track?
If I can get access from the cockpit to the traveler lines i could then self tack.

What do others do?

I am most obliged to you for your response

As others have mentioned, the traveler is for helping to control twist in the sail, to make it flatter. Having the traveler located directly under the sheeting point of the boom does this better than having the traveler offset from the sheeting point. The traveler does not HAVE to be directly under the sheeting point of the boom, but it can help control the sail better if it is. Having the sheet for the main and the sheet for the mizzen run through travelers means that they are NOT like the genoa- there is only one sheet per sail, and they are each working all the time. There are no lazy sheets. This discussion makes me wonder if the booms are rigged with preventers, which are causing confusion. Again, photos might help us understand better.

[Clean Hull]

Originally Posted by Sparx

I am understanding you have the Freedom 35 Cat Ketch, two masts with no jib. Your boat is equipped with conventional booms that have travelors with locking stops on the track, correct?

First of all congratulations on a very capable boat. I am big fan of the cat ketch rig, and have owned two of them.

My first thought is that the cat ketch rig has some subtle nuances. It is these nuances that make the rig such a joy to sail. Best thing to do is start by centering the travelers for up wind work, and then go get some experience sailing her. By paying close attention you will soon discover the nuances. Among the subtle points you will find the boat does its highest windward work with the mizzen boom nearly centered but the main wants to be out a bit more and producing a slot effect of air flow over the mizzen. So the main might benefit with its travelor open a bit. As the wind builds having both travelors eased a bit will help keep the boat on her feet and pulling powerfully. Best speed will be found by easing both travelors when reaching. As a general rule set the mizzen first for the heading, then trim the main for best speed.

To get the absolute best speed from the boat will require frequent travelor adjustment. For that reason I would run the travelor stop controls into the cockpit. However if you dont have this feature the boat will sail fine as you get experience with it, then you can decide if you need the lines run to the cockpit.

For tacking in a breeze, pull the mizzen in very close to centerline and it will push the bow into wind. A light touch on the helm will bring the bow through the wind. The main will be fluttering during this time and should come over to the new tack with no drama. Get on your new course, easing the mizzen as required then trim the main.

It is downwind work where there is potential for hard jibes that could damage equipenent. With experience these jibes can been done with out drama. The general technique is to center the main and then the mizzen just before turning the boat with the helm. Use preventers when then wind is up.

Hopefully helps get you started. My recommendation is to run travelor and preventor controls into the cockpit.

God bless you, sir, yes I have a Cat Ketch Freedom 35 exactly as you described, booms with travelors with locking stops on quite a long track athwarts.
Previously for some 30 years I had a Nic38 which I sold in 2016 and instantly regretted it, bought a motorhome but just not the same.
2019 I saw Pasha looking rather sorry as her PO had passed three years prior and not a finger laid on her since.
I was aware of the build quality, amply confirmed as I set about refurbishing her as she will be our home for much of the foreseeable future.
Reupholstered her, new heads, hot water system, lighting, and much else our priority. Must say the more I do the more I like her.

I am replacing all of the riggings as some years of exposure have taken their toll.
The winch a 24 I find not man enough for the job so upgraded to a 50 ST with a power option. The PO friend had done little maintenance prior to his passing, perhaps understandable, so some rejigging of pulleys and clutches required for correct alignment.

This is what brought me to ask the question about how best to employ the
the self-tacking system, which your most comprehensive reply has shed a lot of light on, for which I am most obliged to you.
The track and traveler along with its control lines were built with a purpose, much of it obvious but how best to employ and learn about the 'nuances' you appear so familiar with, rather than finding out by hard experience is exactly what I am seeking here.

I am already planning how best to run the control lines aft with appropriate stoppers or clutches.
Tacking procedures as you describe are very similar to my previous which had a 180 genoa centered main, let go working sheet, easy through the wind
take up the sheet and she hardly lots a knot, even a joy when single-handed.

I understand she is a much better off wind sailor than on the wind would you agree.

A preventor I have previously used, went to a climbing outfitters, climbers use preventors when lowering themselves, worked perfectly and 10% of the advertised ones.

Please do respond with any further tips or points of guidance, we all never stop learning do we.

[Clean Hull]

Originally Posted by cal40john

I don't have cat ketch experience, but you haven't received replies by anyone with experience so I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I don't understand what you said I have put into bold. If I think I know what you're saying, this shouldn't be an issue unless you're trying to tack beam reach to beam reach.

I would start by not altering the traveler lines until you have sailed the boat.
Different people have different ideas on how to sail, one person might leave the traveler centered at all times, others might want the sail twist perfect. If you decide you need to tweak the traveler to tack then change it to cockpit controls, I don't see that this modification has to happen before the boat is in sailing condition.

Start by trying to sail upwind and tack with the travelers centered. Decide if that's an issue. If not you're done.

I would assume that the main traveler should be somewhat to leeward to not backwind the mizzen. My next step would be to set the traveler lines in the jammers to stop the traveler car before it hits the end of the track. If that tangles, maybe experiment with how far you can let it travel before lines start tangling in the pulleys.

To respond to what is the traveler for - Close on the wind the boom vang typically doesn't have enough purchase to remove the twist in the sail. So the traveler is more like the mainsheet, adjusting the angle of the sail to the wind, and the mainsheet is more like a vang pulling the boom down, which pulls in the top of the sail. Put some telltales on the main, some on the leech. Set the traveler so the lower telltales are flowing, then pull on the mainsheet to pull the boom down, tightening the leech mostly up high, until the top telltale just stops flowing.

I see someone with experience posted while I was composing

That makes a lot of sense, learning more about the results from moving the traveler away from the center, as you pointed out boats and people are individuals and by experimentation find what is best for them.
Also how the traveler, which I have strongly suspected, is certainly more like the mainsheet, which is basically a glorified vang.
Your experience is extremely valuable, whilst having sailed for many years this is my first boat with this setup, please feel free to offer anything further you may feel appropriate.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by Clean Hull

I understand she is a much better off wind sailor than on the wind would you agree.

A preventor I have previously used, went to a climbing outfitters, climbers use preventors when lowering themselves, worked perfectly and 10% of the advertised ones.

I am pleased that you are seeing the potential benefits of quick access to traveler controls. Your refresh work sounds great, you are on your way to a great boat.

Regarding upwind sailing performance I expect that with attention to sail shape and trim you will find this boat holds its own with other full keel cruisers. On the tightest upwind work it may not be the fastest, but as soon as the boat comes off of tight close hauled boat speed goes up quickly. On a wide reach the boat is a freight train. If there is a large pressure on the helm, make a sail trim adjustment. The boat can be largely steered with sail trim alone and best speed is always with a neutral helm

Deep down wind the cat ketch has some amazing surprises in store. No need for a spinnaker when you can spread those big sails out wing and wing. Here is where preventers are most helpful. Imagine running 170 degrees off the wind. The mizzen is out perpendicular to the wind on leward. The preventer I recommend is simply a line run from the end of the boom to a cleat well forward of the mast. By tightening this preventer the boom is pulled out and prevented from an inadvertent jibe.

Now to get to wing and wing the main must be jibed to windward using its preventer. Once well over to windward the wind will pull the boom the rest of the way, and the preventer will avoid an inadvertent jibe. Again the preventor is nothing more than a line run from the end of the boom, through a block forward of the mast and back to the cockpit.

I would run port and starboard preventer from both main and mizzen booms. Each preventer is best run with acess to a winch for help in easing in a blow.

Enjoy.