Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

[minaret]

Originally Posted by ijiraq

I am thinking to do some tests. There is an old decrepit glassed wood cape islander here that is basically soil in many places. I am going to cut out a piece of her and try to impregnated the rot using a cycloaliphatic epoxy thinned with 50-80% xylene. I know people are going to think i am nuts to thin it that much, but I think those epoxies will (over the course of say 5 days to 3 weeks) cure hard as rock once the xylene is gone. Thus the need to heat the area effectively. I will test using battery blankets, I want at least 110F I think. I know xylene will take forever to evap but I am going to try, at least see the result. If thinned enough, and drilled say 3" centers or so using the grease gun or similar pressure method and given enough time, I don't see how this couldn't be effective if refined adequately. As far as bulkheads, yes drilling small holes has brought me grief before, when i found rot in the middle that didn't show, but that is another can of worms ill open later if i have to...

This is exactly what CPES/Smiths is. Exactly.

[ijiraq]

and your takes on the CPES/Smiths system?

[ssanzone]

how big is the boat? how much square footage do you have on the deck?

there is no doubt that this job sucks. by which i mean to say... re-coring a deck sucks.

i re-cored about 100 sq ft in 50 hours and spent another 60 hours filling and fairing in the interest in making it 'perfect' before deciding that i may never get all of the pin holes out and decided to put down synthetic teak and be done with the endless filling and fairing.

took 5 gallons of laminating resin ($250), a few 300 bucks in balsa (because foam wasnt avail when i was ready and i didnt want to wait), i had the 3/4" marine ply so i didnt need to buy a sheet for the nose (windlass & bow roller), $75 in cloth, $100 in 406, 407 and 410 and idk what in misc supplies (grinder pads, sand paper, brushes and rollers, lacquer thinner etc.)

this years and thousands noise is just noise... sure if you are working on a 90' monster or have to remove a teak deck before you can even start re-coring the deck the level of effort is magnified 10 fold but for a 40-50 footer... easy (miserable) breezy (sucky).

roll up those sleeve and get her done.

-s

[HansSolo]

Originally Posted by ijiraq

did you thin the epoxy when you did this? if so to what extent?

I didn't do this, it was done by the previous owner. According to him he thinned the epoxy as much as the manufacture recommended using west system.

Here is a link from west system about thinning epoxy thinning-west-system-epoxy/

[ijiraq]

well i have messed with this stuff before, and while I could invest 30k and turn that boat for at least double that in a week, if i brought her to Toronto Harbor... I am scared off I think. The overall quality control on those so called lux yachts i think might be questionable... I don't actually plan on reselling anytime in the next few years... I am gonna go with my gut and nice and safe and snug with the custom Atkin/Ingrid 39. At least I know I can sail her to wind in a gale without wincing... And cement is so easy to care for, from what I know of this vessel she is a real good layup... Enjoy your glass folks

[Zach]

There is an Atkins for sale in the classifieds section right now for 15k that looks pretty sharp, Kim R is the poster.

I know next to nothing about concrete boats, other than this one doesn't look like it... Which counts for a lot in my book. A lot of ferrocement boats have shapes that wood won't make, steel won't bend and a fiberglass guy couldn't do with a long board sander...

Zach

[ijiraq]

Well Wadda coincidence!

[ijiraq]

Since I was a kid reading salty stories I always knew instinctively what a sea kindly shape was. That was the shape I loved like a woman's curves first time I sailed one, after racing Lake Ontario in a shark 22, I was ruined for other boats. Lol you wouldn't believe how dangerous it was below in my little swing keel balboa hoveto. Trying to lay flat out as low as possible to avoid getting thrown and slammed into the sise of the cabin, middle of the gulf of st Lawrence in a 3 day gale, a foot of water sloshing around in the cabin and I just peed in my floater suit again... Thank gosh for lotsa battery power for the tiller pilot... I think a boat like that might be a different kinda game

[Stumble]

From WEST Systems guide on thinning epoxy...
WEST SYSTEM - Projects - Thinning WEST SYSTEM epoxy

-Thinning epoxy with solvent causes enough loss of strength that we (and most other reputable epoxy formulators) cannot recommend using it as a structural adhesive.

-Adding a volatile solvent extends the pot life and cure time of epoxy and jeopardizes the reliability and predictability of cure.

-The addition of more than 5% solvent results in an excessively flexible cured material.

[CharlieCobra]

Originally Posted by S/V_Surya

Charlie I recall you were using a method to inject epoxy into soft decking with a grease gun. What happened to that?

Two years later and no problems at all. I used Silvertip because of it's low viscosity.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Stumble

From WEST Systems guide on thinning epoxy...
WEST SYSTEM - Projects - Thinning WEST SYSTEM epoxy

-Thinning epoxy with solvent causes enough loss of strength that we (and most other reputable epoxy formulators) cannot recommend using it as a structural adhesive.

-Adding a volatile solvent extends the pot life and cure time of epoxy and jeopardizes the reliability and predictability of cure.

-The addition of more than 5% solvent results in an excessively flexible cured material.

This is classic CYA. When actual WEST reps come to our boatyard, they have no problem with using their resin thinned down in a classic split coat (about 10% max). You just use Slow or Tropical hardener and the solvent all evaporates long before the resin even starts to cure. Sure if you thin Fast WEST on a hot day with acetone, you might have problems. Just basic common sense will avoid this though. Why you would ever consider thinning a resin you are about to use for a structural adhesive I can't imagine. Thinned epoxy is used for sealer coats on wood. They know this.

Now if we were talking thinning epoxy to reduce viscosity for laminating, that's a different matter. That's what laminating resin is for, and reducing is a mistake in that case.

[Stumble]

Minaret,

This thread was about someone using thinned epoxy with the idea of using capillary action to fix delamination issues. Thus a structual application.

Using thinned epoxy for wood sealing is debatable (and I won't do it) since thinning it reduced the waterproof ness of the epoxy, but you are right it at least is an arguable practice.

[Pauls]

There's nothing like a little direct personal experience to increase reality on a subject. So, take a bit of epoxy, thin it as you describe and pour it into a can to cure. Make the sample at least 1/2" thick because your application will not allow for the evaporation of solvents that Minaret describes.

The result will be gel like, soft and weak. Actually do this, it is far better to learn with an experiment than to learn from a major failed project.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Minaret,

This thread was about someone using thinned epoxy with the idea of using capillary action to fix delamination issues. Thus a structual application.

Using thinned epoxy for wood sealing is debatable (and I won't do it) since thinning it reduced the waterproof ness of the epoxy, but you are right it at least is an arguable practice.

Wow, you are indeed an attorney! That is what this thread was about, and you'll note that I had suggested never ever doing that. I only took exception to your blanket statement that its never OK to thin epoxy under any circumstances.

Don't know why the "waterproofness" of a sealer coat matters, as the whole point is to chemically bond build up coats of neat epoxy to the sealer coat. This will provide the barrier. None of the many pros I know find this "arguable".

[ijiraq]

I just bought the Ingrid instead... Lovely safe lil big boat!