Drogues or sea anchor or neither

[Fi2010]

Some of you are displaying unnecessary hostility. Your behavior in our opinion reads like Astroturfing or flogging. https://option-consommateurs.org/wp-...s-eng-2012.pdf

Here’s an idea. Why not join us for our next series of tests? See for yourself how open and honest our testing process is. We’ll even let you deploy the equipment any way you like. If you prefer, bring your own stuff. We would expect the same in return.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Some of you are displaying unnecessary hostility. Your behavior in our opinion reads like Astroturfing or flogging. https://option-consommateurs.org/wp-...s-eng-2012.pdf

Here’s an idea. Why not join us for our next series of tests? See for yourself how open and honest our testing process is. We’ll even let you deploy the equipment any way you like. If you prefer, bring your own stuff. We would expect the same in return.

You really come across as a defensive, poor representative of your company on this site. Accusing posters of astroturfing is over the top. The attitude is enough to make me look at other vendors long before I headed to your shop.

[bluenomads]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You really come across as a defensive, poor representative of your company on this site. Accusing posters of astroturfing is over the top. The attitude is enough to make me look at other vendors long before I headed to your shop.

I can only agree. I know little about drogues, but I am definitely in the market. I would be one of your potential customers, except that your posts on this forum have made sure I will not be buying anything you sell (drogue or otherwise).

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Some of you are displaying unnecessary hostility. Your behavior in our opinion reads like Astroturfing or flogging. https://option-consommateurs.org/wp-...s-eng-2012.pdf

Here’s an idea. Why not join us for our next series of tests? See for yourself how open and honest our testing process is. We’ll even let you deploy the equipment any way you like. If you prefer, bring your own stuff. We would expect the same in return.

Aggression does not make a good salesman. I am inclined to agree that after reading all this and watching the video that I would look towards a vendor that presents their product rather than one that puts effort into disparaging another.

[Fi2010]

It’s difficult for sailors to know when bloggers are authentic or not.

Fiorentino has a long and well documented history of providing impartial information in its technical reports. These reports are vetted by experts in the field and through comparison tests that point out differences in products so sailors can make their own choices. Honesty is never a weakness. That's why we have invited the blogger critics to join us in the open and fair testing that we have always organized.

The negative reaction to our invitation should cause sailors to question why.

[Paul L]

Does the phrase Tone deaf ring any bells?

[thinwater]

The drag load results published by Fiorentino are consistent with my testing, and I tested most of the same models through a range of speeds and sizes.

There is always scatter due to wave conditions, weighting variations and scope. While it is always fair to critique test methods, I believe the data is honest.

Although I do not always agree with Fiorentino, it has never been a criticism of the product or the raw data.

----

So let's get back to talking about drogues.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

It’s difficult for sailors to know when bloggers are authentic or not.

Fiorentino has a long and well documented history of providing impartial information in its technical reports. These reports are vetted by experts in the field and through comparison tests that point out differences in products so sailors can make their own choices. Honesty is never a weakness. That's why we have invited the blogger critics to join us in the open and fair testing that we have always organized.

The negative reaction to our invitation should cause sailors to question why.

Sadly I don't think you get it, put the effort into presenting your product, in the best possible light, and let the potential purchaser assess your efforts in relation to others out there in the marketplace.
The joy of a market driven economy.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

I can only agree. I know little about drogues, but I am definitely in the market. I would be one of your potential customers, except that your posts on this forum have made sure I will not be buying anything you sell (drogue or otherwise).

This for me too. I’m hoping that Fiorentino perhaps doesn’t have English as his first language, or is not used to the internet, either of which might explain how he’s coming across.

[p435]

@Fiorentino


As stated in my last post I appreciate the effort done by you.



Reading the latest posts I got the idea to propose a report nr. 3 with all the missing data. I am willing to assist getting testing condition etc right.



This would be a tremendous push in sales of the Shark Drogue.


Just a thought!

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Some of you are displaying unnecessary hostility. Your behavior in our opinion reads like Astroturfing or flogging. https://option-consommateurs.org/wp-...s-eng-2012.pdf [/FONT]

I had to look this up. Thankfully you gave a link to a document with some sort of definition:

However, a number of questionable business practices are current in the social media. Among
these are “flogging” (creating fake blogs) or “astroturfing” (using a pseudonym and a false
identity to interact with consumers). Increasingly, companies are resorting to these practices as
marketing and publicity tools. They pass themselves off as private citizens, and in so doing,
mislead consumers. This is the main reason why such practices are condemned by marketing
and public relations experts.

Just in case that was directed towards me:
I have a 6 year history with CF and almost 1500 posts. Pretty clear to see that I am just a cruiser.
Actually I sold my boat last week, so right now I'm not even a cruiser but just an armchair sailor




As said, the Shark drogue looks good - for a single drag device.

But Fiorentnos way of promoting their product is just nasty.
In every video, article, post I have seen you come across as patronizing, condescending, dismissive towards the competition, and aggressive. Discrediting Jordan and the CG report doesn't do you any favour at all - even if it may be biased.


On a side note:
I find it strange when a single person, keeps talking about "we" and "Fiorentino", when "I" or "Zack Smith" would be more appropriate. To me this looks like the attempt of a small mom&dad business trying to look like a large scale global enterprise with big research departments. Like prominently bragging about NASA and US Navy, and that sort of stuff. But maybe thats just me, as English is not my primary language, so some things just feel strange for me.
Sounds like the "pluralis majestatis", no clue what the english word is for this.


OK, the last section was directed to a person, and not the company, and so may be in violation with the forum rules. If so, pls delete

[Fi2010]

Lots of mean statements based on emotion. Would it be okay to focus on some facts?

Can you point out in the report where we our bias?

[p435]

@Fiorentino - what about looking at the ones without emotions but with facts and even offers?

[rabbi]

OK, once again:
why do you use drogues sized for totally different boat sizes?
Some drogues are rated for 35 ft, others around 50ft. Some for 5to, others for 25to.


Why you chose to not re-deploy the JSD after you realized you messed it up?



Anyway, I can't see how a test can lead to good results without different towing speeds.
I am no scientist and don't pretend to be but I am sure flow characteristics around a drogue (and resulting brake force) change quite a bit when a boat speeds up to surf down a wave. Especially when a drogue with dynamic characteristics as the JSD is concerned, where the catenary, and thus the effectiveness of the cones at the aft section and therefore total breaking force, depends on the tail weight and boat speed.
Some drogues will excell at higher speeds, where others may fail. Some drogues (particularly the single device ones) may jump / surface over certain speeds or when pulled out of a wave, which reduces breaking forces when its needed most.


For an example of what I mean look at this Fiorentino video at 1:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaotyqYjr7A

[fxykty]

Thanks for the report, very interesting, especially the improvements in performance when adding chain even with those drogues that don’t recommend using weight. You didn’t specify where you added the chain, but I assume that for all drogues other than JSD and Shark it was before the drogue?

It would have been better had you avoided the Shark drogue advertorials mixed into the reports of the results.

Is Fiorentino a company or a person?