Drogues or sea anchor or neither

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Rabbi,

Your accusations are inaccurate. Honesty is never a weakness.

[FONT=&quot]The drogues are sized correctly according their operational manuals. We recommend you take the time to review them. Some companies choose to build a drogue that handles a wider range of boat sizes. For example, the Para-Drogue only has one canopy size. Their single canopy drogue handles boats up to 50 feet. Other companies have different approaches.

Thank you for once again posting the videos and the report. I think most readers will have understood by now that this is the information you want to be published.
And thank you for mentioning this honesty thing again.


You use a 35ft / 6to boat and I guess you sized for that boat. Both galerider and JSD drogues are advertised for 5to so too small. Unless their operational manuals state something different (I don't have them).

But I guess this is the best answer I will get to my first question. I think readers can make up their mind if this answer makes sense or not.


That leaves two questions:
why not re-test the JSD once you realized you messed up deployment?


Is a drogue surfacing & skimming on the surface like the shark does in the video above a bad thing or not?

[thinwater]

The Paradrogue seems to be (I could be wrong) unique among speed limiting drogues in using a parachute-stye canopy. Without going deep into the topic, chutes have certain instabilities when towed fast that have lead all other manufacturers in other directions. One of the problems is that if the boat slows quickly (the lull between waves) the ball of water constrained by the chute tends to keep going, causing the chute to invert and collapse. I've seen this many times, and so I am not thrilled by the idea of a chute for speed limiting drogues. The use of chutes for sea anchors is totally different, and Fiorentino can go into more detail regarding rigging and sizing to avoid this. Sufficient to say, Fiorentino designed the Shark for higher speeds instead of down sizing a chute. They can explain.



Paradrogue suggests multiple drogues in very close series as a way of adjusting drag. I have even more reservations about that, but I never tired it (a chute in right in the wake of another chute is likely to be even more unstable, but that is a guess). But that is what they suggest. I never tested the multi-chute version, so I suggest asking them.


They published drag values for the single, but not the double or triple.


Just for information. Not something I am interested in.



Description Boat size(m) Boat size(ft) Part number Yacht drogue <15.24m Up to 50ft SAF1200 Yacht Tandem drogue >15.24m Over 50ft SAF1220 Yacht Triple drogue >21m Over 70ft SAF1225

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

[FONT=&quot]We’ve made several sincere attempts to answer your questions. You respond by attacking us. At this time the best we can offer you is our data where you can find your answers.

Excuse me but maybe I missed some posts.


You gave some answer to my question regarding the inconsistent drogue sizing.


I have not seen an answer to my question why you haven't re-executed the JSD test when you realized you messed up the deployment.


I have not seen an answer to my question if you see an issue with a drogue surfacing & skimming in moderate conditions.


Please provide me the post # of your answers so I can stop bugging you about them.

[Fi2010]

Rabbi,

We’ve already been down this road before. That’s why we provided our test data.

Our tests demonstrate the Series Drogue averages double the drag of speed-limiting drogues. The para-anchor has the highest holding power. A makeshift car tire if rigged properly has similar holding as the Series Drogue. Car tires can also be rigged for speed-limiting.

The Series Drogue and Para-Anchor are passive tactics where sailors go below decks and wait out the storm. The Series Drogue presents the stern to the weather while the Para-Anchor presents the bow to the weather.

Speed-limiting drogues slightly slow a boat so sailors can move out of the path of a storm. This is an active approach. These devices can also be used for emergency steering. Boat design and personal preference help determine the best tactic for a sailor.

Testing indicates how weight and paying out adequate rode length can enhance drogue performance. Drogues riding near the surface are not problematic if you adhere to this principle. For the moment, three manufacturers disagree about connecting weight to their drogues. Every manufacturer recommends different rode lengths....designs are different.

We hope you consider keeping your promise.

[Fi2010]

[QUOTE=thinwater;2750536]The Paradrogue seems to be (I could be wrong) unique among speed limiting drogues in using a parachute-stye canopy. Without going deep into the topic, chutes have certain instabilities when towed fast that have lead all other manufacturers in other directions. One of the problems is that if the boat slows quickly (the lull between waves) the ball of water constrained by the chute tends to keep going, causing the chute to invert and collapse. I've seen this many times, and so I am not thrilled by the idea of a chute for speed limiting drogues. The use of chutes for sea anchors is totally different, and Fiorentino can go into more detail regarding rigging and sizing to avoid this. Sufficient to say, Fiorentino designed the Shark for higher speeds instead of down sizing a chute. They can explain.

Paradrogue suggests multiple drogues in very close series as a way of adjusting drag. I have even more reservations about that, but I never tired it (a chute in right in the wake of another chute is likely to be even more unstable, but that is a guess). But that is what they suggest. I never tested the multi-chute version, so I suggest asking them.

They published drag values for the single, but not the double or triple.

Just for information. Not something I am interested in.



Drew,

There’s pros and cons to any storm drogue design. The following is an overview taken from our commercial testing. We don’t cover manufacturing costs that are directly impacted by the quality, size, and thickness of parts used to make up storm drogues. We hope this clarifies matters.

Solid Fabric Drogue
Solid fabric prevents water from passing through it. A drogue canopy made from solid fabric can capture more water to help increase drag. This usually means a manufacturer can build a smaller unit making the device easier to handle.

During load cell tow tests we’ve observed some solid fabric drogues yaw. Yawing can potentially cause rode chafe. How the water passes through a drogue can also impact a storm drogue. If the slots are too big or too small, then the storm drogue can spin, cavitate, or yaw. Such issues typically mean a storm drogue might not perform to its optimal level. We prefer to see a storm drogue tow in a straight line with limited motion.

Open Web Drogue
Webbed drogues have big gaps of space between a checkerboard of webbing. This permits a high volume of water to pass through the webbing. Such action reduces spinning which can prevent shroud and rode tangles. There can be an issue with the cable used to keep the drogue’s mouth open. When towed under load the cable tends to lose it shape and there are published reports of the cable folding in half. Partially collapsed drogues can lose some of their holding power.

Practical Sailor reported how the cable in their Galerider broke during use. The author of the article thought it might have something to do with the packing. The cable is packed in a manner that places continuous loading on it and possibly overtime this can impact the metal. Especially when you store the device in a salt water environment.

You also have to be careful opening and packing the webbed drogue since it can spring open rather fast. We have video with blue water expert, Pam Wall, unpacking and packing the webbed drogue amongst many other drogues. Results of the comparison test show the pros and cons of packing storm drogues.

Dashew/Fiorentino tow test
Authors Steve and Linda Dashew along with Fiorentino conducted a comparison tow test onboard Dashews’ 83 ft. trawler Windhorse. The drogues were sized to Windhorse.

Weight solution increases performance
We believe our extensive research demonstrates how attaching weight to all the storm drogues dramatically improve their performance. It can reduce issues with cavitation, deployment, and drogue jumping. Weight can also increase the overall holding power of a storm drogue. Three manufacturers disagree with this solution and do not recommend adding weight to their drogues.

Multiple drogue use
Any type of multiple or tandem drogue set-up from our experience requires too many steps and weight to be safe. It’s more practical to build several drogue sizes to fit the needs of different boats.

Single canopy drogue vs. Series Drogue
When comparing the single canopy drogue to the Series Drogue our testing demonstrates both share equal success. U.S. Coast Guard test results conclude the same. The only difference is the speed-limiting drogue is designed to stabilize your boat so you can keep moving. This permits sailors to move out of the path of a storm. The Series Drogue presents the stern to the weather so you can go below decks and passively wait out the storm. Similar to the parachute sea anchor deployed at the bow.

What we hope to see in the future is open and honest comparisons that review all of the pros and cons of equipment and their deployment processes. Only with transparency can sailors acquire the knowledge they need to choose what works best for them. A win for everyone!

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Rabbi,

We’ve already been down this road before. That’s why we provided our test data.

Our tests demonstrate the Series Drogue averages double the drag of speed-limiting drogues. The para-anchor has the highest holding power. A makeshift car tire if rigged properly has similar holding as the Series Drogue. Car tires can also be rigged for speed-limiting.

The Series Drogue and Para-Anchor are passive tactics where sailors go below decks and wait out the storm. The Series Drogue presents the stern to the weather while the Para-Anchor presents the bow to the weather.

Speed-limiting drogues slightly slow a boat so sailors can move out of the path of a storm. This is an active approach. These devices can also be used for emergency steering. Boat design and personal preference help determine the best tactic for a sailor.

Testing indicates how weight and paying out adequate rode length can enhance drogue performance. Drogues riding near the surface are not problematic if you adhere to this principle. For the moment, three manufacturers disagree about connecting weight to their drogues. Every manufacturer recommends different rode lengths....designs are different.

We hope you consider keeping your promise.

What promise? Re-read my post:

Depends on the answer. If its just biased marketing bullsh*t recognized as such by a stupid cruiser like me i will say so.

So far your answers have been pretty bloated but without much essence.

I asked you 3 questions:
Q1: Why do you use inconsistent drogue sizes for a comparison.
A1: "The drogues are sized correctly according their operational manuals."
Comment: According to your own report both galerider and JSD are rated for up to 5to but you use a 6to boat.

Q2: Why did you chose to not re-run the JSD test when you realized you messed up the deployment.
A2: No answer provided


Q3: Is a drogue surfacing & skimming on the surface like the shark does in the video above a bad thing or not?
A3: long text about para anchors, tires, weights, active vs passive, etc. But no clear answer to the question, except a comment "drogues riding near the surface are not problematic" in an active scenario.

Comment:
I haven't asked about a drogue riding "near the surface" but about surfacing and skimming. A sudden incident where the drogue bobs along the surface and has no significant breaking force until it re-sets.

If you watch your own video at 1:04 you can see the drogue surfacing, breaking through the surface and gliding over the water as indicated by the blast of spray created by the drogue. You can see the sudden loss of breaking force causes the drogue line to slack and whip.

I grasp the idea of active vs passive but that doesn't provide an answer to my particular question. So I rephrase Q3:
What are the consequences if a drag device suddenly fails to create drag due to surfacing and skimming when under heavy load?


Please, just address the Q2 and Q3 without elaborate excursions into your reports.
Or just tell me you are not going to answer because you don't like my questions (or your answers).

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by rabbi

What are the consequences if a drag device suddenly fails to create drag due to surfacing and skimming when under heavy load?

Very bad, especially if you are silly enough to use a short length of nylon line as I once did.

The drogue flies through the air for 15 or so meters, the boat accelerates down the wave and starts surfing, Then the drogue bites in with an almighty jerk on the stern like the brakes have just been slammed on. The rope stretches and then the drogue gets ripped out again and the cycle repeats.

This happened to me mid Tasman in a blow. Using 50m or so of 11mm climbing rope and a few meters of 8mm chain. The next time I used one in anger it was on much longer heavier line with 7 meters of 10mm chain. Worked much better with a very steady pull.

This seems to match the observations from florentino's static drag test, in the unweighted and weighted tests.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Very bad, especially if you are silly enough to use a short length of nylon line as I once did.

The drogue flies through the air for 15 or so meters, the boat accelerates down the wave and starts surfing, Then the drogue bites in with an almighty jerk on the stern like the brakes have just been slammed on. The rope stretches and then the drogue gets ripped out again and the cycle repeats.

This happened to me mid Tasman in a blow. Using 50m or so of 11mm climbing rope and a few meters of 8mm chain. The next time I used one in anger it was on much longer heavier line with 7 meters of 10mm chain. Worked much better with a very steady pull.

This seems to match the observations from florentino's static drag test, in the unweighted and weighted tests.

Thanks for jumping in. Its not too hard to imagine what happens when a single device drogue is overloaded, has the wrong line length for the wave length, and/or no appropriate weight.



I'm just trying to get these answers from Fiorentino in short plain words.
Fiorentino claim being honest and blabla, but fail to provide simple answers to these simple questions.

So far he (they??) have just tried to wriggle out of this.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Very bad, especially if you are silly enough to use a short length of nylon line as I once did.

The drogue flies through the air for 15 or so meters, the boat accelerates down the wave and starts surfing, Then the drogue bites in with an almighty jerk on the stern like the brakes have just been slammed on. The rope stretches and then the drogue gets ripped out again and the cycle repeats.

This happened to me mid Tasman in a blow. Using 50m or so of 11mm climbing rope and a few meters of 8mm chain. The next time I used one in anger it was on much longer heavier line with 7 meters of 10mm chain. Worked much better with a very steady pull.

This seems to match the observations from florentino's static drag test, in the unweighted and weighted tests.

A related question is whether nylon is the best choice. We use nylon for anchoring and sea anchors, because we must have shock absorption. However, the JSD can be made using HMPE, because the design itself absorbs the shock; the cones move through the water. The same with any speed limiting drogue; it moves through the water faster when pulled hard, drag increasing with the square of speed.

Another advantage of lower stretch line is that the line does not contract (snap forward) when the strain comes off. The drogue may still pull out, but it will not snap forward so distinctly. The boat is also restrained more immediately when a wave breaks (no delay while the rope stretches). In fact, Seabrake recommends polyester.

The disadvantage is that the load on the drogue is more variable.


Something to consider.

[thinwater]

What I have seen in testing and in storms, over and over, is that waves approach the drogue from behind (the waves are overtaking you). Because drogues run near the surface (all but the JSD and sea anchors), when a steep wave face catches the drogue, suddenly the scope on the drogue becomes very short, as though the rode is pulling up at a good angle. Naturally, the drogue comes out.


Weight helps a little, but 10-15 pounds compared to a rode tension of 500-1000 pounds is pretty small. The weight of several hundred feet of wet line helps. But if the load is high and the waves get steep, it's a challenge.


This is why a speed limiting drogue should not be undersized in order to go a little faster. As the storm builds, it can become unstable just when you need it most, explaining some of the horror stories. Lower speeds and lower load/area are more stable. It won't matter much with a long swell, but it does in steep conditions. Below 5 knots boat speed is pretty stable, but above that stability declines quickly.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by rabbi

I'm just trying to get these answers from Fiorentino in short plain words. Fiorentino claim being honest and blabla, but fail to provide simple answers to these simple questions.

So far he (they??) have just tried to wriggle out of this.


If you watch your own video at 1:04 you can see the drogue surfacing, breaking through the surface and gliding over the water as indicated by the blast of spray created by the drogue. You can see the sudden loss of breaking force causes the drogue line to slack and whip.

We provide research to back our claims and answer your questions in numerous posts. We invite you on our next series of tests so you can become involved and help out. If this is not good enough maybe focusing on what you passed over might shed some light on the issue.

You left out what was said in the 70 second test video which explains everything.

In the video you can hear our tester say, “I’m going to pay out more rope, it’s a little short on the rope. It should go to the backside of the wave Mike.” The Shark partially jumps and then our tester says, “Definitely more line…”

As explained in previous posts. Weight placement and rode length are keys to reducing drogue jumping. It’s that simple. Nearly all devices sit at or near the surface due to loading. Not an issue if you pay out enough rode and add weight.

What’s maybe not as obvious is testing took place in rough seas outside the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. The seas are becoming large. The rode is short and there’s no weight attached to the Shark. Our testers were playing around with different rode lengths. All to see how the Shark performs in different situations. Weight was not attached to see if the Shark could handle shock loading. This type of testing is conducted whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Again, in reference to sizing, all drogues were fitted correctly for one specific boat. Meaning if we’re going to travel around the world with only one drogue we bought the correct size in every category. Proof is in the operational manuals. Manufacturers could have changed their size guidelines after our test results were published.

Now that we have the correct group of storm drogues we can test them out on larger or smaller boats. Just to see if boat design impacts the testing process… Will drogue drag test results remain consistent etc.

Our test results. Regardless of boat size the drag characteristics and behavior of all the devices remained consistent. Scattered as it might be, all of this data is within the research we provided to you.


We’ve made several attempts to answer your questions. You continue to respond with negativity which is not helpful and only creates confusion.

[rabbi]

Q1: Why do you use inconsistent drogue sizes for a comparison.
A1: We sized for some other imaginary boat and not the test boat.
Comment: If you want to do a side by side comparison of drag devices, and include details on a particular test boat, maybe you should state that these drogues were not correctly sized for the test boat but for some other boat, and state the boat details for which you sized the drogues.


Q2: Why did you chose to not re-run the JSD test when you realized you messed up the deployment.
A2: Still no answer provided.
Comment: Lets provoke an answer from you. Two options come to my mind: you weren't interested in correct JSD results or you were just too lazy.


Q3: Is a drogue surfacing & skimming on the surface like the shark does in the video above a bad thing or not?
A3: "Weight placement and rode length are keys to reducing drogue jumping. It’s that simple. Nearly all devices sit at or near the surface due to loading. Not an issue if you pay out enough rode and add weight."


Comment:
You basically you say it doesn't happen with weight and enough rope. You don't answer if it is an issue if it does happen (which was the question).


Paying out rope changes the angle of attack so the rope doesn' pull the drogue upwards. But even with horizontal pull the drogue will be pulled out of the face of a steep wave. The risk is immanent for single device drogues, regardless of scope or weigth. Unless you add enough weight to make it ride very deep.
See thinwater's post #148


As to conditions in the video. I know this is hard to judge from a blurry video but it did not look like typical drogue deployment conditions to me. Confused seas yes, but steep large waves no. Also not a ton of wind (guessing from your hair)

[HR42]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

We provide research to back our claims and answer your questions in numerous posts. We invite you on our next series of tests so you can become involved and help out. If this is not good enough maybe focusing on what you passed over might shed some light on the issue.

You left out what was said in the 70 second test video which explains everything.

In the video you can hear our tester say, “I’m going to pay out more rope, it’s a little short on the rope. It should go to the backside of the wave Mike.” The Shark partially jumps and then our tester says, “Definitely more line…”

As explained in previous posts. Weight placement and rode length are keys to reducing drogue jumping. It’s that simple. Nearly all devices sit at or near the surface due to loading. Not an issue if you pay out enough rode and add weight.

What’s maybe not as obvious is testing took place in rough seas outside the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. The seas are becoming large. The rode is short and there’s no weight attached to the Shark. Our testers were playing around with different rode lengths. All to see how the Shark performs in different situations. Weight was not attached to see if the Shark could handle shock loading. This type of testing is conducted whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Again, in reference to sizing, all drogues were fitted correctly for one specific boat. Meaning if we’re going to travel around the world with only one drogue we bought the correct size in every category. Proof is in the operational manuals. Manufacturers could have changed their size guidelines after our test results were published.

Now that we have the correct group of storm drogues we can test them out on larger or smaller boats. Just to see if boat design impacts the testing process… Will drogue drag test results remain consistent etc.

Our test results. Regardless of boat size the drag characteristics and behavior of all the devices remained consistent. Scattered as it might be, all of this data is within the research we provided to you.


We’ve made several attempts to answer your questions. You continue to respond with negativity which is not helpful and only creates confusion.

You should perhaps consider a career as a politician, answering, whilst steadfastly refusing to answer. You keep throwing this mountain of “research” at the specific questions.

It really annoys me when commercial interests get on these forums. Not your fault though, the nature of the beast I guess. You’ve given it a red hot go though and really should be congratulated for your persistence.

[Fi2010]

It’s sad you can’t appreciate transparency coming from a company who has spent a great deal of money and time on research. It would have been easier to hide behind a fake blog account to promote ourselves and attack others. Instead, we prefer open and honest debate. Something not happening in this thread. Luckily for us, sailors will be able to recognize the difference.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

It’s sad you can’t appreciate transparency coming from a company who has spent a great deal of money and time on research. It would have been easier to hide behind a fake blog account to promote ourselves and attack others. Instead, we prefer open and honest debate. Something not happening in this thread. Luckily for us, sailors will be able to recognize the difference.

You should seek professional help for your trollophobia.


I am real, i have no blog and like most posters on this thread a much longer history with c.f. than you. I habe no commercial interest at all, no link to any company, and don't get paid by anyone for anything.
The only reason why you are under some sort off attack is the way you presented your product and bad mouthed others, especially the jsd and mrJordan.
That is what started this little fight. Nothing else.

Plenty of people can see through your smoke and mirror:
You call the coast guard report biased and driven by Jordans comercial interest. But at the same time you claim your 'company funded research' papers show no bias at all.


Btw. Still waiting for answer to Q2 (which you ignored) and Q3 (where you failed to answer my question but simply said it's no issue)
I find the answer to q1 ridiculous for serious research but as you said it's up to the reader to decide. Some may be happy with your explanation