Broken Lagoon

[GBR134]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

It's even mentioned on the same page, just a few posts above yours

Fair point - he does clearly state that Colin had identified that the start of the structural problem predated the hurricane damage. I perhaps overlooked that because he goes on to draw a firm conclusion for which he provides no evidence. If you accept that the structural damage predates the hurricane this is no necessarily ‘clear proof of poor design/construction’ unless you know the history of the boat!

[Nomad57]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

Remove the damaged parts of the old bulkhead, fit a new bulkhead (it won’t fit into the liner groove, but sized correctly will cover the same area as the existing bulkhead) and then attach the bulkhead to the hull with biax cloth - not just big globs of glue.

Stronger than the original and doesn’t require the deck to come up. If done correctly, can also be hidden behind trim and fittings.

Thanks. I hope it all works out. I will continue to follow the videos.

Nomad

[RnJBSailing]

Originally Posted by GBR134

Fair point - he does clearly state that Colin had identified that the start of the structural problem predated the hurricane damage. I perhaps overlooked that because he goes on to draw a firm conclusion for which he provides no evidence. If you accept that the structural damage predates the hurricane this is no necessarily ‘clear proof of poor design/construction’ unless you know the history of the boat!

If you watch all the Parley Revival videos, as I have from day one, you will see in these later videos clear evidence of construction failures. Example - he has found and shown pics of the adhesives ised in original build where the beads of adhesive that were meant to bond the deck & hull (as well as others areas) NEVER even touched! The adhesive still looks like a bead of round extruded toothpaste clearly evidencing the parts meant to adhere never touched in original construction. That is POOR construction and POOR quality control! Pics and videos of numerous areas like that are the "evidence" you want. Check out the video's and see for yourself what I am telling you.

[Sand crab]

The main issue with these repairs is you have to gut the interior to get to the repairs. That will be the big fix I think.

[owly]

Originally Posted by RnJBSailing

If you watch all the Parley Revival videos, as I have from day one, you will see in these later videos clear evidence of construction failures. Example - he has found and shown pics of the adhesives ised in original build where the beads of adhesive that were meant to bond the deck & hull (as well as others areas) NEVER even touched! The adhesive still looks like a bead of round extruded toothpaste clearly evidencing the parts meant to adhere never touched in original construction. That is POOR construction and POOR quality control! Pics and videos of numerous areas like that are the "evidence" you want. Check out the video's and see for yourself what I am telling you.

Sadly this is the the rule in modern boat building, not the exception. If you bother to read David Pascoe's writing... a famous marine surveyor deceased in 2018, but his articles kept alive on the internet, it becomes very obvious that sloppy workmanship in factory built boats is pervasive. The methods used lead to exactly the sort of issues you describe. Lagoon is hardly alone in resorting to labor saving methods... If you can't keep the costs down, you won't sell boats. I think of factory built plastic boats as being in the same class as manufactured homes........ and of course the majority of them spend their lives in marine trailer parks (marinas) ironically ;-) There will always be these kinds of issues both in monohulls and multihulls, and probably always have been.



Even the "big boys" have their problems .....

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by RnJBSailing

If you watch all the Parley Revival videos, as I have from day one, you will see in these later videos clear evidence of construction failures. Example - he has found and shown pics of the adhesives ised in original build where the beads of adhesive that were meant to bond the deck & hull (as well as others areas) NEVER even touched! The adhesive still looks like a bead of round extruded toothpaste clearly evidencing the parts meant to adhere never touched in original construction. That is POOR construction and POOR quality control! Pics and videos of numerous areas like that are the "evidence" you want. Check out the video's and see for yourself what I am telling you.

i had really thorough check of our boat and found glued areas and even found areas where that glue has not stick from day 1. Glued is all furniture to bulkhead or furniture to hull and bonding is little and is not structural. When boat fails structurally this glueed areas will of course detach. Bulkhead glue only areas are ones where some play is desired to spread forces - this was my estimate.

Colin is great guy with marine degree but he is novice regarding cat building techniques of today.

There is clear line where fiberglassing ends and gluing starts. Also in main bulkhead. So it is glassing plan set by builder. Saying that you know better than builders equipped with computer models and running finite element analysis to determine strengths required for each point of boat is not credible. They have database of failures, feedback from 1000's of boats and improving based on experiences.

Yes thay have built stronger boats in the past but because they added safety margin - couple extra layers - as they didnt have enough feedback to know when is enough strength. that is not necessary better building of boats. It did help with grounding. But sometimes you got extra structural cracks.

Todays production boats are not meant to be grounded any longer. But they are faster.

Our L400 has over 30k nm and zero deterioration of structure, so that is validation of well enough built boat, evidence countering above fearmongering claims.

And it appears design error was made with L 450 water and rot definitely has something to do with it in large number of cases.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

And it appears design error was made with L 450

But, but, what about the computer models and finite element analysis?

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i had really thorough check of our boat and found glued areas and even found areas where that glue has not stick from day 1. Glued is all furniture to bulkhead or furniture to hull and bonding is little and is not structural. When boat fails structurally this glueed areas will of course detach. Bulkhead glue only areas are ones where some play is desired to spread forces - this was my estimate.



Colin is great guy with marine degree but he is novice regarding cat building techniques of today.



There is clear line where fiberglassing ends and gluing starts. Also in main bulkhead. So it is glassing plan set by builder. Saying that you know better than builders equipped with computer models and running finite element analysis to determine strengths required for each point of boat is not credible. They have database of failures, feedback from 1000's of boats and improving based on experiences.



Yes thay have built stronger boats in the past but because they added safety margin - couple extra layers - as they didnt have enough feedback to know when is enough strength. that is not necessary better building of boats. It did help with grounding. But sometimes you got extra structural cracks.



Todays production boats are not meant to be grounded any longer. But they are faster.



Our L400 has over 30k nm and zero deterioration of structure, so that is validation of well enough built boat, evidence countering above fearmongering claims.



And it appears design error was made with L 450 water and rot definitely has something to do with it in large number of cases.

1) the glue not sticking from day one on a non structural part is a sign of shoddy workmanship, and if they don’t care about that then they probably also don’t care to much about the structural bonds.
2) it’s obvious the builders computer models and finite element analysis didn’t catch onto the badly designed bulkheads on the 450 so maybe a boat owner could do better?
3) the bulkheads appear to be warping from compression. If there was rot in the bulkheads it would probably relieve some of the compression and warping, so no rot may not have anything to do with it.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by smj

1) the glue not sticking from day one on a non structural part is a sign of shoddy workmanship, and if they don’t care about that then they probably also don’t care to much about the structural bonds.
2) it’s obvious the builders computer models and finite element analysis didn’t catch onto the badly designed bulkheads on the 450 so maybe a boat owner could do better?
3) the bulkheads appear to be warping from compression. If there was rot in the bulkheads it would probably relieve some of the compression and warping, so no rot may not have anything to do with it.

^^^^THIS^^^^

No matter how much wriggling and weasle wording is used by some posters ^^these^^ simple facts remain.

[smj]

It also worries me that boats less then 10 years old have rotten structural bulkheads. Is that caused by bad design, shoddy workmanship or bad maintenance?
I will give Lagoon kudos as it appears they stepped up to the plate and took care of the problems with the Lagoon 400 bulkheads, that’s a sign of a good company. Will they also step up to the plate and take care of the Lagoon 450 bulkhead issues?

[Training Wheels]

Don’t know about you guys, but I don’t use “glue” on my boat, period. I use epoxy. I use sealant. I can’t think of any “glue” I’ve ever used on any of our boats.

[Peace-o-cake]

You are incorrect. if you watch all the Parlay episodes, you will see that they discovered a previous owner made some shoddy repairs to the broken bulkheads. It was clearly evident as Parlay pointed out once the walls were removed.

Originally Posted by ozsailer

The Lagoon was a badly Hurricane damaged vessel with a raft of issues caused by the Hurricane. If you watch the series of videos at no time does the owner, who is a very talented person at no time blames Lagoon for the issue. Colin contacted Lagoon for advice and is being supported in obtaining details on how to repair his boat and is in personal contact with the naval achitects who are assisiting him in his repairs. You cannot in any way shape of form blame Lagoon for the issue based on the boats history yet Lagoon is assisting with technical information. That does not sound like a company that leave people stranded.


Ozsailer
lagoon 440

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Don’t know about you guys, but I don’t use “glue” on my boat, period. I use epoxy. I use sealant. I can’t think of any “glue” I’ve ever used on any of our boats.

Epoxy is glue
It is also laminating resin
Or fairing compound


Not a brand I have used but it clearly says glue

[Donkey]

[QUOTE=arsenelupiga;3416549]They have database of failures, feedback from 1000's of boats and improving based on experiences.

That must be one hell of a database.....and growing.

[Donkey]

[QUOTE=Donkey;3416681][QUOTE=arsenelupiga;3416549]They have database of failures, feedback from 1000's of boats and improving based on experiences.

It must be a relief to know they have a database of failures. If that is the parameter of success I assume you drive a Ford Pinto.