15M Catamaran Capsize off Portugal

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I’m not sure why you think this event is so special that it will affect all performance cruising catamarans?

They hit something (possibly) in reasonable conditions and capsized. What’s there to learn?

Certainly the loss of life is significant, and provides a reason for wearing a PFD and/or harness and tether in easy conditions.

I'm not sure. It was just an intuitive thought.

The chance of hitting something seems much bigger than I thought it was, be it man-made or something living. I have no idea of how likely it really is, but there have been a few of these now within a short time.

That this very TS5 suffered the fate, it in some way adds to the previous feeling. It's not just "some boat" of the thousands out there, but chance had it be this very one.

A lot of talk about performance catamarans and wind+wave induced capsizing. What do we know about performance catamarans and UFO-related capsizing? The instinctive thought would be that more speed, less weight might correlate with worse outcomes?

But yes, just thinking out loud as someone who hasn't really thought about this before

[smj]

Im sure the higher the speed the more of a chance of pitchpoling you have if you hit a submerged object. Also the higher the speed the less time you spend on passage so less of a chance of finding the submerged object?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by smj

Im sure the higher the speed the more of a chance of pitchpoling you have if you hit a submerged object. Also the higher the speed the less time you spend on passage so less of a chance of finding the submerged object?

Kind of like the question about walking or running in the rain:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18901072

Matt

[smj]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Kind of like the question about walking or running in the rain:



https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18901072



Matt

Crap, now you got me thinking [emoji848]. The ultimate bluewater boat, hull speed .5kts. [emoji23]

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I'm not sure. It was just an intuitive thought.



The chance of hitting something seems much bigger than I thought it was, be it man-made or something living. I have no idea of how likely it really is, but there have been a few of these now within a short time.



That this very TS5 suffered the fate, it in some way adds to the previous feeling. It's not just "some boat" of the thousands out there, but chance had it be this very one.



A lot of talk about performance catamarans and wind+wave induced capsizing. What do we know about performance catamarans and UFO-related capsizing? The instinctive thought would be that more speed, less weight might correlate with worse outcomes?



But yes, just thinking out loud as someone who hasn't really thought about this before

Certainly on smaller performance/racing cats, stuffing a bow (or having it impact something) can easily cause a capsize (pitch pole). For larger performance cats, I assume its just a matter of scale.

[clockwork orange]

Looking at that photo its interesting how similar the hull shape is to old beachcats like the Tornado, P cat etc, nothing special, just a nice clean shape without too much rocker, daggerboards, light weight and plenty of sail area. The formula for a fast cat has not changed much in the last 60 years. Sorry, no speculation on the cause of the capsize, hopefully all will be revealed in the future. Tragic news about the loss of life.

Steve,
Cascade, #233.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Certainly on smaller performance/racing cats, stuffing a bow (or having it impact something) can easily cause a capsize (pitch pole). For larger performance cats, I assume its just a matter of scale.

I think the CW Atlantic capsize and now this has silenced a lot of the 'Cats longer than 50 feet don't capsize crowd.

Riley on Lavagabond just did a video saying as much and had to edit it after he learnt about the Atlantic capsize.

I think we just need to accept it can happen and move on?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I think the CW Atlantic capsize and now this has silenced a lot of the 'Cats longer than 50 feet don't capsize crowd.

Riley on Lavagabond just did a video saying as much and had to edit it after he learnt about the Atlantic capsize.

I think we just need to accept it can happen and move on?

The CW capsizes I know of were due to high wind speeds (and one certainly with lack of owner experience contributing heavily), not due to collision.

I expect that pitch polling due to collision is quite possible in a high performance larger cat (Ive sailed a wide variety of larger cats, just not many I consider performance boats).

[Yihang]

Yeh. The CW was on AP. Maybe if the ap can be programed to head down when on a reach and into the wind when beating. But even then probably not fast enough? At least something.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I'm not sure. It was just an intuitive thought.

The chance of hitting something seems much bigger than I thought it was, be it man-made or something living. I have no idea of how likely it really is, but there have been a few of these now within a short time.

That this very TS5 suffered the fate, it in some way adds to the previous feeling. It's not just "some boat" of the thousands out there, but chance had it be this very one.

A lot of talk about performance catamarans and wind+wave induced capsizing. What do we know about performance catamarans and UFO-related capsizing? The instinctive thought would be that more speed, less weight might correlate with worse outcomes?

But yes, just thinking out loud as someone who hasn't really thought about this before

There are an average of 1500 containers lost at sea off of ships annually not to mention trees and logs .

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by smj

Crap, now you got me thinking [emoji848]. The ultimate bluewater boat, hull speed .5kts. [emoji23]

My stem is about 5 inches thick st the sheer so I doubt i would suffer damage from a shipping container especially st 6 to 7 knots

[clockwork orange]

Originally Posted by newhaul

My stem is about 5 inches thick st the sheer so I doubt i would suffer damage from a shipping container especially st 6 to 7 knots

5" thick, your joking, right.

[Yihang]

Stems can be very thick. But its usually not the part that hits especially under sail. But yeh thats some thick stem you got.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I think the CW Atlantic capsize and now this has silenced a lot of the 'Cats longer than 50 feet don't capsize crowd.

Riley on Lavagabond just did a video saying as much and had to edit it after he learnt about the Atlantic capsize.

I think we just need to accept it can happen and move on?

We have IIRC only three well-publicised instances in over 5 years involving performance cruising catamarans - two CW Atlantics and one TS5. I’m excluding the high performance cruiser/racer catamarans and racing events. That’s not showing a significant risk. We also have instances of charter-type cats floundering and capsizing.

I don’t believe this event is anything to hang onto performance cruising cats particularly. I’m still relaxed about it and have no more trouble sleeping off watch in whatever weather as any other skipper.

[Yihang]

Yeh. Agreed. But for the mono guys lets just let them have it. Hahaha.