What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

[NormanMartin]

The issue really is about being a blue water sailor more than anything else. Think about Guzzwell in Trekka, Acton in Super Shrimp, Elam and Muddie in Sopranino, and the Pardy's. There are plenty others as well.

The question is: "What makes a blue water sailor?"

Study, patience, and emotional balance start my list

Norm

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

[IMG]http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=178758&d=1539178804[/IMG
]

This scene is pretty familiar to me: A big fast boat driving to windward in strong breeze. Lack of "white sea horses" should not imply there are no waves. A boat going 7+ kts directly into the waves is going to knock a lot of water into the air. The apparent wind on a 30kt day is close to 40. That water is coming back at you at 40kts! This is a BIG boat so which side he steers from is immaterial. But yes, some protection would be nice.

On my boat I'd probably be sailing on the wind vane and huddled behind the dodger, but I'd still be flying to windward. On a full keel heavy weight, not so much.

Did we not read the opening post?

The OP has a budget of $10,000 - $20,000.

Which fast fin keel blue water boat that can continue upwind safely in his price range in those conditions would you recommend for the OP?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Did we not read the opening post?

The OP has a budget of $10,000 - $20,000.

Which fast fin keel blue water boat that can continue upwind safely in his price range in those conditions would you recommend for the OP?

[SIZE="3"]I think he was referring to Kenomacs picture more than to the OP.. but that's just me.. /SIZE]

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Did we not read the opening post?

The OP has a budget of $10,000 - $20,000.

Which fast fin keel blue water boat that can continue upwind safely in his price range in those conditions would you recommend for the OP?

This boat, 42 ft, alloy, reportedly purchased by John and Reina for $19,000, has been cruising and racing in Mexico for the last three years. They live aboard in the winter and go everywhere with it. Currently in Mazatlán. BTW, the Sea of Cortez and offshore off Puerto Vallarta does have tough weather at times, try rounding Cabo Corrientes or crossing from Cabo San Lucas in a norther (but the water is warm). There are many available like it but people are afraid of them.

(Anyhow, I was just supporting Ken's claim that the boat pictured was probably going to windward quite capably)

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by thomm225

fast fin keel blue water boat that can continue upwind safely

Where did all those extra conditions not mentioned in the OP come from?

[john61ct]

Checked out the Jesters' Challenge.

Is this for real?

> No rules. Agreed start time and finish line. Make sure you are safe and die like a gentleman if the boat goes down without calling on others.

Gnarly. . .

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by wingssail

WingRyder Has said that he already made up his mind, he's going with the full keeled traditional option. That's fine. But just for discussion, what constitutes a "blue water boat" is more a matter of personal preference.



I agree with that quote. For the price range the OP was considering, there are a lot of boats to choose from, particularly if you don't restrict yourself to what some people call "blue water boats"

The important thing is to get a strong (not necessarily heavy) boat in good condition.

Another poster had this advice, which is good advice: "Be sure that you have someone very knowledgeable, with you there, go thru the entire vessel, systems, fittings, rigging, electrical, all pumps, engine, hull, steering, electronics, ice box, generator, winches, stove, batteries, sails, reefing system, marine head systems, pump out easy for holding tank, bilges, etc, etc. stowage areas, fuel and fresh water capacity, head room in the down below spaces as well as leg room in the berths, comfort and ease of steering and handling sheets and halyards in the cockpit. Anchor, chain, rode, and windlass." To that I'd add: a close look at the chainplates, rudder, and keel bolts, if any.

In other words, the condition and construction count more than the keel type.

For the money the OP's willing to spend it is unlikely he'll find any boat where all of this is in perfect shape. So he should plan to put some more money into upgrades, plenty of money, I'd guess. (Thomm would disagree, and he is proof it does not have to be cash intensive, but Thomm is unusual)

If he really wants to consider all types of boats, there were two good web sites already mentioned with lots of facts, written by experienced offshore sailors:

Nigel Calder and Chris Beeson https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/yach...atistics-30154, "a yacht that can look after herself in a blow without constant attention; Speed, on various points of sail"

John Neal Mahina Expeditions - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising "The boat you choose should be safe, comfortable, well built, and ideally capable of fast passages"

I agree with almost all of what they have to say. Notice they both emphasize performance. But opinions do creep in. They don't really like the deep fin keel-spade rudder boats.

I disagree with that. Here are my thoughts.

It is said that Fin Keel, lightweight modern boats are uncomfortable and have uncomfortable motion in a seaway. That is not my experience and I've sailed plenty of all types, from full keel cruisers to lightweight flyers. A moderate displacement fin keel boat can have a nice ride. My boat is 43', weighs 16,000 lbs, and, silly us, we think it is very comfortable sailing or at anchor.

It is also said that, "Modern fin keeled boats need to be sailed actively in similar conditions" No, a modern fin keel boat does not need to be sailed actively. On a wind-vane, on any point of sail, in pretty much any conditions, they look after themselves just fine. On our boat, our watch standing means sitting under the dodger, watching, not actively sailing in calm or rough weather.

John mentioned, "deep, high aspect keel may exhibit a lack of steering directional stability when ocean swells are present". No, they do not lack steering directional stability. The fin keel/spade rudder will react instantly and easily to rudder inputs, such as from a wind vane or an autopilot, or of course, the helmsman's input. Any boat can get tossed by big waves, the fin keel-spade rudder boat will be back on course in seconds, not wallowing in a trough after a broach.

Another claim: "a heavier boat with a well immersed forefoot will not leave the water so readily and so doesn’t slam like a lighter boat." Maybe true, but the heavy boat with weight in the ends will drive it's bow deep into the next wave, may come to a complete stop, then rise up dramatically. I'm not sure that is a more comfortable ride.

And then there are some other commenter's who support the performance type of boats:




Some people cite "safety" as a reason for having heavy, full keel boat. but here are some reasons why that may not necessarily be true:


And you have to consider the speed of the passage. On a downwind or reaching course the speed difference between a full keel and a lighter, fin keel, boat may not seem that much. but 25 miles a day is 250 miles in a ten day passage. AND, if you are going to weather (as we all must do at times)...


The distance made to windward in a fin keel boat may be twice what a full keel boat can do. Two examples: I was cruising in company with friends on very nice full keel boats on two different offshore passages, going against the prevailing wind. In both cases they simply had to give up and motor or divert to another destination.

Finally, there are some views we can just discount because they are obviously not interested in facts:,



So, I know I'm not about to change anyone's mind on this, but I do think some things have to be said.

Fredrick Roswold, SV Wings, Mexico
Serendipity 43, Around the world double handed. 55,000 miles. 8' fin keel, spade rudder, D/L 182 SA/DISPL 26

Well, since you quoted me I will say I was not speaking for all heavy displacement full keel boats. In fact mine is not really a full keel nor heavy displacement. I also would not say mine or a full keel boat is necessarily unsafe. Most folks would probably prefer riding out rough weather in a heavier displacement boat because it feels safer, but a uldb in the same weather, riding it out, would probably survive too.
In my case I believe it is a combination of long keel, keel hung rudder and narrow beam that conspire to make it more prone to broaching compared to more modern designs. But as with any design, you need to know how yours reacts to things and be prepared for it. I Can usually accommodate my own design’s idiosyncratic behavior without too much drama.
Oh and I’d definitely agree that upwind performance advantage of a fin keel spade rudder is not at all insignificant. Being able to clear a point or make it sooner to a harbor or anchorage can have substantial benefits too! Just don’t give me a bunk in the bow please!
Oh, and btw, the part you quoted of mine about the GGR boats left out the first part. I said I suspected that the boats MAY have broached but I don’t know for sure. Any boat can, some may be more prone to it.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Where did all those extra conditions not mentioned in the OP come from?

I was responding to Wingsails post which I quoted.

On my boat I'd probably be sailing on the wind vane and huddled behind the dodger, but I'd still be flying to windward. On a full keel heavy weight, not so much.

And Btw, when are you going to buy your first sailboat? (or boat of any type?)

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This boat, 42 ft, alloy, reportedly purchased by John and Reina for $19,000, has been cruising and racing in Mexico for the last three years. They live aboard in the winter and go everywhere with it. Currently in Mazatlán. BTW, the Sea of Cortez and offshore off Puerto Vallarta does have tough weather at times, try rounding Cabo Corrientes or crossing from Cabo San Lucas in a norther (but the water is warm). There are many available like it but people are afraid of them.

(Anyhow, I was just supporting Ken's claim that the boat pictured was probably going to windward quite capably)

Anyone with racing experience on a hitech beach cat or cruising experience on a reasonable heavy, long fin keel boat that can point can tell immediately after driving an old full keel boat in heavy weather would know it's not something you can sail upwind in rough conditions.

You have to go with the boats strength's. it's as simple as that which on a full keel boat like mine means at times you have to heave too and wait it out

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Well, since you quoted me I will say I was not speaking for all heavy displacement full keel boats. In fact mine is not really a full keel nor heavy displacement. I also would not say mine or a full keel boat is necessarily unsafe. Most folks would probably prefer riding out rough weather in a heavier displacement boat because it feels safer, but a uldb in the same weather, riding it out, would probably survive too.
In my case I believe it is a combination of long keel, keel hung rudder and narrow beam that conspire to make it more prone to broaching compared to more modern designs. But as with any design, you need to know how yours reacts to things and be prepared for it. I Can usually accommodate my own design’s idiosyncratic behavior without too much drama.
Oh and I’d definitely agree that upwind performance advantage of a fin keel spade rudder is not at all insignificant. Being able to clear a point or make it sooner to a harbor or anchorage can have substantial benefits too! Just don’t give me a bunk in the bow please!

I know your boat, it's a great boat. There was a time when racing boats had hulls like yours, for a reason.

We don't sleep in the bow either. At sea we sleep mid ships.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by boatman61

[SIZE="3"]I think he was referring to Kenomacs picture more than to the OP.. but that's just me.. /SIZE]

Ken's pictures?

Are you talking the same guy that was anchored in a protected anchorage in 20 knot winds claiming he was in 50 knots a couple years back?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Anyone with racing experience on a hitech beach cat or cruising experience on a reasonable heavy, long fin keel boat that can point can tell immediately after driving an old full keel boat in heavy weather would know immediately it's not something you can sail upwind in rough conditions.

You have to go with the boats strengths. it's as simple as that

Thomm, now you are getting right to the point. We were talking about choices for a cruising boat, and safety was mentioned as one criteria. If beating off of a lee shore in a breeze is important, well...

And BTW, I read lots of your posts, and I think your approach to sailing and your boat are spot on. Don't take any of my comments critically.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This boat, 42 ft, alloy, reportedly purchased by John and Reina for $19,000, has been cruising and racing in Mexico for the last three years. They live aboard in the winter and go everywhere with it. Currently in Mazatlán. BTW, the Sea of Cortez and offshore off Puerto Vallarta does have tough weather at times, try rounding Cabo Corrientes or crossing from Cabo San Lucas in a norther (but the water is warm). There are many available like it but people are afraid of them.

(Anyhow, I was just supporting Ken's claim that the boat pictured was probably going to windward quite capably)

Also it's like the posts above, a fin keel boat like that is fine as long as it's moving but what if after days on end in heavy stormy weather the skipper and crew are too tired to drive anymore?

That's where a 36' 15,000lb full keel boat can be your friend...…

http://no-frills-sailing.com/what-ma...ippers-basics/

From the article in the link above. (dated April 2016)

In Brief: What´s a seaworthy Yacht?
When it comes to seaworthiness, a modern T-keel boat is as safe as the sturdy full keel-yacht: “If the skipper can handle the boat properly and has the skills, from my point of view it is really not a matter of which keel a boat features.”, says Tim Kröger. Of course, when looking at the diagrams showing stability curves for different boats it´s crystal clear: A classic full keel yacht should, in terms of capsize and “good manor” in heavy weather, get the label as most seaworthy.

Also notice how they are trying to compare the fin keel boat to the pinnacle of seaworthiness! A full keel boat!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Also it's like the posts above, a fin keel boat like that is fine as long as it's moving but what if after days on end in heavy stormy weather the skipper and crew are too tired to drive anymore?

That's where a 36' 15,000lb full keel boat can be your friend...…

Agreed. But we sail just about 100% on the wind vane. Steering is for fun.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Also it's like the posts above, a fin keel boat like that is fine as long as it's moving but what if after days on end in heavy stormy weather the skipper and crew are too tired to drive anymore?

Or, you can heave to. It's absolutely simple and works very well. We have done this only once when we felt we needed to, in the Bashi Channel between Taiwan and the Philippines. The wind vane broke at midnight in 36-40 knots, big waves. We hove to until daylight and then got underway towards a port in PI where we could repair the windvane.

How did it break? While sailing slowly to windward a big wave picked us up and threw us backwards. The steering oar broke. We were below. I should not have slowed us down so much.

http://wingssaillogbookpages.blogspot.com/2005/12/