What EXACTLY is a "blue water boat"?

[p435]

[QUOTE=WingRyder;2737707.... looking for a boat.

....

I don't plan on a circumnavigation, but I would like to cross the Atlantic to Europe and the Mediterranean in about 7-10 years, and return a couple of years later.

......./QUOTE]


Looking at your plans, I would go for a catamaran. I decided 3 years ago for a cat and I am VERY happy with my decision. I plan to sail next year the med from east to west and want to go into the Atlantic Ocean in 2020.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by p435

Looking at your plans, I would go for a catamaran. I decided 3 years ago for a cat and I am VERY happy with my decision. I plan to sail next year the med from east to west and want to go into the Atlantic Ocean in 2020.

An Ocean Crossing Cat for $10,000 - $20,000?

[wingssail]

[IMG]http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=178758&d=1539178804[/IMG
]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I only see a couple of white sea horses in the distance what's the score with all that spray? Why no protection for the skipper? why is he steering from the leeward side? Needs to get some weight out of the bows. Is this yours?
Pete

This scene is pretty familiar to me: A big fast boat driving to windward in strong breeze. Lack of "white sea horses" should not imply there are no waves. A boat going 7+ kts directly into the waves is going to knock a lot of water into the air. The apparent wind on a 30kt day is close to 40. That water is coming back at you at 40kts! This is a BIG boat so which side he steers from is immaterial. But yes, some protection would be nice.

On my boat I'd probably be sailing on the wind vane and huddled behind the dodger, but I'd still be flying to windward. On a full keel heavy weight, not so much.

[Joe Okros]

There is no such thing. There are well found and well-prepped boats and there are ones that are not. People have been crossing oceans for centuries on what sometimes passed for "rafts",---the ones who do it successfully all have ONE thing in common. They are bluewater SAILORS.

Become one, and the boat won't matter. Too many people read the internet, watch youtube and decide that its something they want to do and then find the reality is little sleep, constant wetness and cold, aching bodies contorted into minute spaces, the incessant maintenance and repair of things always choosing the most inopportune moment to malfunction etc etc etc.

My advice is to crew on a few passages and see if its something you REALLY want to do, then decide what boat you can live with. If you have become a blue water sailor by then chances are you will probably have a pretty good idea of the boat you want/need.

[philiosophy]

Lots of good ifo here. Learn what to look for. Do your homework. Put in the time walking the docks and talking to skippers about their boats. A production boat like say a Benateau,Catalina Jeaneau,etc have much lighter rig. That said I see them all the time out here world cruising. Personally sailing back and forth to New Zealand to the Islands north of there Tonga, Fiji etc I wouldn’ want. to deal with the conditions I have encountered. A Catalina 47 has a size smaller rig than my Southern Cross and weighs double. A hell of a lot more interior space in those.You might add the SC 35 and 39’s to your list. Round sterned blue water boats with a long for and aft shallow Keel. There is plenty of literature out there to learn. Don’t fall in love with a groovy pirate ship looking long Bow Spirit. Don’t let the boat speak to you other than quality of build and design.

[oldbilbo]

There's a world of difference between 'what you need' and 'what you want'... something we all have to live with. For the former, there are the many books of circumnavigations on small boats with very little frills, and for the latter there are all the magazines and boat shows. There's a lot of merit in KISS, and value in books such as 'Ocean Cruising On A Budget' ( Anne Hammick ) and 'This Old Boat' ( Casey )


The 'Jesters', mostly Brits, today cross the Atlantic - and back - in tough little sub-30' boats, true to the self-reliant principles of the original s/h Transatlantic sailors. So do the French. You may not be comfortable in a boat without refrigeration or H&C showers, but those are clearly on the 'wants' list.


Whatever boat(s) you get, you will have a love/hate relationship with the maintenance needs. Mostly hate. The bigger it gets, the more you'll need others to do maintenance. That costs, and it's never done as well as you have paid for. So get something small enough for you, solo, to cope with those jobs.

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by eddiestubbs

You may want to consider the degree of stability when upside down. If you ever roll, you don't want to be stable upside down. Which would rule out lots of double helm, dance floor, party barges; even if they are labeled "blue water". But your budget probably rules out those anyway.

Indeed it does.

[WingRyder]

[QUOTE=p435;2742219]

Originally Posted by WingRyder;2737707.... looking for a boat.

....

I don't plan on a circumnavigation, but I would like to cross the Atlantic to Europe and the Mediterranean in about 7-10 years, and return a couple of years later.

......./QUOTE

Looking at your plans, I would go for a catamaran. I decided 3 years ago for a cat and I am VERY happy with my decision. I plan to sail next year the med from east to west and want to go into the Atlantic Ocean in 2020.

I appreciate the advice, but Cat's are waaay out of my price range!

[WingRyder]

Originally Posted by philiosophy

Lots of good ifo here. Learn what to look for. Do your homework. Put in the time walking the docks and talking to skippers about their boats. A production boat like say a Benateau,Catalina Jeaneau,etc have much lighter rig. That said I see them all the time out here world cruising. Personally sailing back and forth to New Zealand to the Islands north of there Tonga, Fiji etc I wouldn’ want. to deal with the conditions I have encountered. A Catalina 47 has a size smaller rig than my Southern Cross and weighs double. A hell of a lot more interior space in those.You might add the SC 35 and 39’s to your list. Round sterned blue water boats with a long for and aft shallow Keel. There is plenty of literature out there to learn. Don’t fall in love with a groovy pirate ship looking long Bow Spirit. Don’t let the boat speak to you other than quality of build and design.

I like the double enders as well, I just don't see many at my price range. I would ultimately like to get ahold of a Westsail 32... which is something I'm working on.

[wingssail]

WingRyder Has said that he already made up his mind, he's going with the full keeled traditional option. That's fine. But just for discussion, what constitutes a "blue water boat" is more a matter of personal preference.

Originally Posted by fxykty

“Bluewater” means lots of things but generally means capable by virtue of its design and build to withstand larger seas and stronger winds found offshore.

I agree with that quote. For the price range the OP was considering, there are a lot of boats to choose from, particularly if you don't restrict yourself to what some people call "blue water boats"

The important thing is to get a strong (not necessarily heavy) boat in good condition.

Another poster had this advice, which is good advice: "Be sure that you have someone very knowledgeable, with you there, go thru the entire vessel, systems, fittings, rigging, electrical, all pumps, engine, hull, steering, electronics, ice box, generator, winches, stove, batteries, sails, reefing system, marine head systems, pump out easy for holding tank, bilges, etc, etc. stowage areas, fuel and fresh water capacity, head room in the down below spaces as well as leg room in the berths, comfort and ease of steering and handling sheets and halyards in the cockpit. Anchor, chain, rode, and windlass." To that I'd add: a close look at the chainplates, rudder, and keel bolts, if any.

In other words, the condition and construction count more than the keel type.

For the money the OP's willing to spend it is unlikely he'll find any boat where all of this is in perfect shape. So he should plan to put some more money into upgrades, plenty of money, I'd guess. (Thomm would disagree, and he is proof it does not have to be cash intensive, but Thomm is unusual)

If he really wants to consider all types of boats, there were two good web sites already mentioned with lots of facts, written by experienced offshore sailors:

Nigel Calder and Chris Beeson https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/yach...atistics-30154, "a yacht that can look after herself in a blow without constant attention; Speed, on various points of sail"

John Neal Mahina Expeditions - Selecting A Boat for Offshore Cruising "The boat you choose should be safe, comfortable, well built, and ideally capable of fast passages"

I agree with almost all of what they have to say. Notice they both emphasize performance. But opinions do creep in. They don't really like the deep fin keel-spade rudder boats.

I disagree with that. Here are my thoughts.

It is said that Fin Keel, lightweight modern boats are uncomfortable and have uncomfortable motion in a seaway. That is not my experience and I've sailed plenty of all types, from full keel cruisers to lightweight flyers. A moderate displacement fin keel boat can have a nice ride. My boat is 43', weighs 16,000 lbs, and, silly us, we think it is very comfortable sailing or at anchor.

It is also said that, "Modern fin keeled boats need to be sailed actively in similar conditions" No, a modern fin keel boat does not need to be sailed actively. On a wind-vane, on any point of sail, in pretty much any conditions, they look after themselves just fine. On our boat, our watch standing means sitting under the dodger, watching, not actively sailing in calm or rough weather.

John mentioned, "deep, high aspect keel may exhibit a lack of steering directional stability when ocean swells are present". No, they do not lack steering directional stability. The fin keel/spade rudder will react instantly and easily to rudder inputs, such as from a wind vane or an autopilot, or of course, the helmsman's input. Any boat can get tossed by big waves, the fin keel-spade rudder boat will be back on course in seconds, not wallowing in a trough after a broach.

Another claim: "a heavier boat with a well immersed forefoot will not leave the water so readily and so doesn’t slam like a lighter boat." Maybe true, but the heavy boat with weight in the ends will drive it's bow deep into the next wave, may come to a complete stop, then rise up dramatically. I'm not sure that is a more comfortable ride.

And then there are some other commenter's who support the performance type of boats:

Originally Posted by Polux

And a boat that can sail well in light and heavy winds and most of all a boat with a very good upwind ability because that's the point of sail that you will be sailing most of the time.

Originally Posted by Don C L

I have a friend who delivers boats all over the world and he has his criteria based on his experience. Surprisingly he does not look down his nose at too many boats, but he will flatly say, “that boat is not prepared to cross an ocean” by looking at how it is equipped.

Some people cite "safety" as a reason for having heavy, full keel boat. but here are some reasons why that may not necessarily be true:

Originally Posted by Don C L

the (long keel) boats that capsized did so because they could not prevent a broach while running and were not employing drogues that could hold the stern up.
Going downwind in my long keel boat in steep seas is its Achilles heel and it can be a work-out to keep her on her feet, but there are ways.

And you have to consider the speed of the passage. On a downwind or reaching course the speed difference between a full keel and a lighter, fin keel, boat may not seem that much. but 25 miles a day is 250 miles in a ten day passage. AND, if you are going to weather (as we all must do at times)...

I hate it they won't point when I was used to boats that could point 30 degree or so off the wind instead of 60-70 degrees

The distance made to windward in a fin keel boat may be twice what a full keel boat can do. Two examples: I was cruising in company with friends on very nice full keel boats on two different offshore passages, going against the prevailing wind. In both cases they simply had to give up and motor or divert to another destination.

Finally, there are some views we can just discount because they are obviously not interested in facts:,

Its not often I see so much rubbish posted on a thread on cruiser forums...for a small boat, you need a full keel, and a strong hull

thirty day passage, in which they will encounter force eight gales daily, with anything up to the odd force ten, get the right boat. full keel, heavy rig, heavy boat, the older ones are better, as the hulls tend to be thicker

So, I know I'm not about to change anyone's mind on this, but I do think some things have to be said.

Fredrick Roswold, SV Wings, Mexico
Serendipity 43, Around the world double handed. 55,000 miles. 8' fin keel, spade rudder, D/L 182 SA/DISPL 26

[Codetrader]

Bruce Roberts -- Pacific Seacraft --- Flicka in your price range and can do ANY passage on any sea.

[Sailorbob8599]

Originally Posted by wingssail

. . . You see very few heavy, full keeled, double enders out enjoying a day on the bay.

I guess the Pardey's were 'one of the few' because they often mentioned taking their full keel boat out for a day sail or even 'round the bouys' club racing wherever they happened to be . . . depends on how much you love sailing I guess.

[369thegoose]

Has someone a decently looked after boat in the med for sale?
Spent so much time looking can't decide

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

I guess the Pardey's were 'one of the few' because they often mentioned taking their full keel boat out for a day sail or even 'round the bouys' club racing wherever they happened to be . . . depends on how much you love sailing I guess.

Good point. There are others too, my friend Nikk on Balance is another. It depends on how much you love sailing.

Without wanting to offend anybody, many really enthusiastic sailors buy other kinds of boats, and quite a lot of sailors didn't know what they were getting into when they bought their boats, and many of them found they don't like sailing that much, especially with a boat which is not particularly fun to sail.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by oldbilbo

There's a world of difference between 'what you need' and 'what you want'... something we all have to live with. For the former, there are the many books of circumnavigations on small boats with very little frills, and for the latter there are all the magazines and boat shows. There's a lot of merit in KISS, and value in books such as 'Ocean Cruising On A Budget' ( Anne Hammick ) and 'This Old Boat' ( Casey )


The 'Jesters', mostly Brits, today cross the Atlantic - and back - in tough little sub-30' boats, true to the self-reliant principles of the original s/h Transatlantic sailors. So do the French. You may not be comfortable in a boat without refrigeration or H&C showers, but those are clearly on the 'wants' list.


Whatever boat(s) you get, you will have a love/hate relationship with the maintenance needs. Mostly hate. The bigger it gets, the more you'll need others to do maintenance. That costs, and it's never done as well as you have paid for. So get something small enough for you, solo, to cope with those jobs.

Spot on..
All it really boils down to is your comfort zone and how little you personally need to be happy..
The less you need the wider the choice of boats.
24.. 64.. The views the same..