Two Anchors ?

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

Two anchors are generally better than one. Besides the obvious qualities like increased maneuverability and a backup to possible mechanical failures, or storm management, a more comfortable ride offered by employing 2 anchors is noticeable with a forked (45-60° set) or Bahamian rig (too complicated for most folk). A backed up anchor or tandem set can be problematic in calm waters, but in heavy wind or strong currents, they can save your butt. Bottom line, two anchors are measurably better than one, if your scope is correct, your rig suitable for conditions and are experienced enough to manage.

By the same logic, three anchors would be better than two. And four anchors would probably be best of all. (Except, of course, five or more anchors.)

Only problem is that multiple anchors have a nasty tendency to foul each other.

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by Bash

By the same logic, three anchors would be better than two. And four anchors would probably be best of all. (Except, of course, five or more anchors.)

Only problem is that multiple anchors have a nasty tendency to foul each other.

Bottom line, two anchors are measurably better than one (I believe is the discussion), if your scope is correct, your rig suitable for conditions and are experienced enough to manage.

[noelex 77]

Two anchors do offer slightly better holding than one (only slightly because the load are very rarely evenly distributed) and also a little bit less shearing.

The problem is no one sets two large anchors. The weight and difficulty deploying them is too great.
The practical choice is between one large anchor and two smaller anchors. IMHO the single large anchor is superior.

Often cruising boats set out with anchors that are too small. After dragging several times they realize the serious risks of this approach. The costs involved in updating the anchor, bow roller, and possibly anchor winch and chain deter them from upgrading to a larger anchor. As a consequence they put up with the difficulties and problems with deploying 2 anchors and retrieving the combination when the inevitable happens when they do drag.

If you are a cruising boat go with a large, good quality anchor and associated tackle if this is possible. This equipment is more important than most other systems on board.

There will be times when you need two anchors to reduce swing etc, but if you need multiple anchors to ensuring your holding ( unless its cyclone or hurricane) your anchoring system is inadequate for a cruising boat.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

If the V is set widely, how likely is it that your rodes would get tangled? I'm still learning about anchoring (well, I'm still learning about EVERYTHING ...)

Raku, please ignore the posts telling you it's okay to use two anchors. These are people who can not accept the truth which is that their primary anchor is not capable enough for their boat. Do as I and the other old salts explain and get an anchor so big that people laugh about it's big size, while you sleep well behind the hook

Originally Posted by Seahunter

Two anchors are generally better than one. Besides the obvious qualities like increased maneuverability and a backup to possible mechanical failures, or storm management, a more comfortable ride offered by employing 2 anchors is noticeable with a forked (45-60° set) or Bahamian rig (too complicated for most folk). A backed up anchor or tandem set can be problematic in calm waters, but in heavy wind or strong currents, they can save your butt. Bottom line, two anchors are measurably better than one, if your scope is correct, your rig suitable for conditions and are experienced enough to manage.

Sorry Seahunter, but that post is a Fail because:

1. Two anchors severely limit maneuverability which is the opposite of what you state. During emergencies, you will have to abandon at least one, but often both anchors as one big tangled mess.

2. Mechanical failures are prevented best by keeping a tight maintenance schedule on those systems that are crucial aboard. Like not using a dangerous type of swivel for example. The problems caused by setting two anchors, completely negates any positive effects from having a backup. Also, a backup means that the primary anchor would be capable by itself while I bet it is done not as a backup, but to support the incapable primary anchor.

3. Storm management means that one single anchor is the best technique by FAR. 80% of all trouble is caused by setting 2 anchors; the other 20% by not setting the single anchor right or using an incapable anchor.

4. A comfortable ride is created by using the right scope, right snubber, and if your boat needs it (ketches, multi-hulls etc. do not need it), a riding sail on the back stay. A second anchor often leads to insurance claims instead of comfort.

5. A double anchor does NOT save your butt; it gives you a spanking instead and increases the chances of loosing your boat dramatically.

Bottom line, it is not just silly to use two anchors; it also endangers your crew members and other boats anchored around you.

ps. I do realize this was probably a troll post but it doesn't hurt to keep repeating this kind of important info.

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

Bottom line, two anchors are measurably better than one (I believe is the discussion), if your scope is correct, your rig suitable for conditions and are experienced enough to manage.

Nope, fail again. Two anchors are measurably WORSE than one correctly sized anchor.

Experience means that one knows that two anchors is the wrong way because of having observed the drama, damage and accidents often.

cheers,
Nick.

[nv5l]

Hi Nick:

I agree with you completely. I have a 35# CQR that dragged twice -- once because I took someone's advice and put out a second anchor, and the other just needed a little more scope to stop the dragging.

I've got a 33', 13,000 modified full keel. Based on you posts, I guess a 45# Manson would be a good choice.

Anyway, thanks for the posts...
don

[careka]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here is the Jedi 99% anchoring rule: in 99% of all cases, anchor using one single anchor. If that anchor does not hold your boat, you need a bigger anchor, not a second anchor.

This rule has been tested and proven all the way up to 120 knots sustained wind cat5 hurricane.

cheers,
Nick.

Where can i find this test?

and a happy new sailing year to all.

[sabray]

When a named storm is on course I put out 2 anchors. The bigger fx tword the worst weather and a danforth 180 degrees off the fx. stick em down with a killet so the rhode doesn't wonder. If my mooring fails I have a fail safe. If another boats mooring fails I can fall back and clear myself from the mooring. Sometimes and yes its 1% it is a good option. Rarely I have thrown out a stern anchor in a narrow creek to stop from swingin. Otherwise its been the one anchor or the mooring with 2 pendants.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

Two anchors are generally better than one. Besides the obvious qualities like increased maneuverability and a backup to possible mechanical failures, or storm management, a more comfortable ride offered by employing 2 anchors is noticeable with a forked (45-60° set) or Bahamian rig (too complicated for most folk). A backed up anchor or tandem set can be problematic in calm waters, but in heavy wind or strong currents, they can save your butt. Bottom line, two anchors are measurably better than one, if your scope is correct, your rig suitable for conditions and are experienced enough to manage.

Thank you for that.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Nope, fail again. Two anchors are measurably WORSE than one correctly sized anchor.

Experience means that one knows that two anchors is the wrong way because of having observed the drama, damage and accidents often.

cheers,
Nick.

Typical nights on the hook for us:




The boats we see in Maine and the Maritimes using two anchors are usually the ones untangling the mess in the morning..


This boat was usisng two anchors, twisted the rodes, tangled them and dragged the whole mess onto the beach. Boat was a total loss..

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by careka

Where can i find this test?

and a happy new sailing year to all.

It was unfortunately us aboard Jedi performing it... non voluntary that is!

This was in 2004, hurricane Ivan hitting Grenada. I was interviewed using Pactor email on HAM radio which was the only form of communication and it was published in the Cruising World and other magazines.

The lesson learned there was that 5/8" shackle and swivel was not strong enough for our 25-ton (metric) boat, so we upgraded to 3/4" (20mm, see picture below). We also recently found chain connectors that match the strength of our chain (6,600 pound working load) which is the one in the 2nd picture (note the G70 rating stamped into it). I sprayed it with cold galvanize here because they don't come galvanized but have that gold colored coating instead. This connector has no problem passing the windlass.





ciao!
Nick.

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Raku, please ignore the posts telling you it's okay to use two anchors. These are people who can not accept the truth which is that their primary anchor is not capable enough for their boat. Do as I and the other old salts explain and get an anchor so big that people laugh about it's big size, while you sleep well behind the hook



Sorry Seahunter, but that post is a Fail because:

1. Two anchors severely limit maneuverability which is the opposite of what you state. During emergencies, you will have to abandon at least one, but often both anchors as one big tangled mess.

2. Mechanical failures are prevented best by keeping a tight maintenance schedule on those systems that are crucial aboard. Like not using a dangerous type of swivel for example. The problems caused by setting two anchors, completely negates any positive effects from having a backup. Also, a backup means that the primary anchor would be capable by itself while I bet it is done not as a backup, but to support the incapable primary anchor.

3. Storm management means that one single anchor is the best technique by FAR. 80% of all trouble is caused by setting 2 anchors; the other 20% by not setting the single anchor right or using an incapable anchor.

4. A comfortable ride is created by using the right scope, right snubber, and if your boat needs it (ketches, multi-hulls etc. do not need it), a riding sail on the back stay. A second anchor often leads to insurance claims instead of comfort.

5. A double anchor does NOT save your butt; it gives you a spanking instead and increases the chances of loosing your boat dramatically.

Hogwash, it's certainly clear that some misinterpret size with weight. "Because" and "spanking" are not arguments based on a "say-so" unless substantiated with supporting evidence or documentation. If there weren't double, even triple anchor sets existing there might be an argument. The two are not related. However, all available documentation shows that 2 anchors are in fact better than one. Granted employing two anchors take a certain skill set, like operating two engines, or sailing with multiple masts that many people find difficult to fathom or grasp. The failure of a 2 anchor set is more likely an example of ineptitude or failure of the /USR.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Typical nights on the hook for us:




The boats we see in Maine and the Maritimes using two anchors are usually the ones untangling the mess in the morning...

Well, you have to know your waters. Your tides (and presumably, accompanying currents) are much stronger than they are here in west central Florida, where a 3' difference between low and high tides gets comments for days.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Typical nights on the hook for us:


The boats we see in Maine and the Maritimes using two anchors are usually the ones untangling the mess in the morning..

Good pic. Now here's our personal record of being all over the place... the track is a solid ball plus the loop we sailed when sounding out the area

This was in Colombia at the foot of a mountain range causing all kinds of willywaws and what have you...

ciao!
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

Hogwash, it's certainly clear that some misinterpret size with weight. "Because" and "spanking" are not arguments based on a "say-so" unless substantiated with supporting evidence or documentation. If there weren't double, even triple anchor sets existing there might be an argument. The two are not related. However, all available documentation shows that 2 anchors are in fact better than one. Granted employing two anchors take a certain skill set, like operating two engines, or sailing with multiple masts that many people find difficult to fathom or grasp. The failure of a 2 anchor set is more likely an example of ineptitude or failure of the /USR.

How much proof do you need? MaineSail just posted a pretty convincing picture, but let me add one anyway; both had two anchors out... just some pieces of rope/chain bungling from the decks now:


It's fine that you have decided that your anchor is just fine when you add a second anchor to help it. But please stop saying that it outperforms a single anchor that is sized correctly because failures like the pics posted here now are not outperforming the boats that just stay put with their correctly size single anchors. And it will happen to you too, one will drag and take the other out too (by fouling it). It is only a matter of time.

cheers,
Nick.