Thinking of buying a Flicka 20

[Indefatiguable]

Addendum:

the removal of "trailerability" from our list of qualifiers was also due to the statements by many to the effect that launching a flicka is not a "day sailor" type of affair, but rather something to be done with much more time in the water per launch than I had previously thought.

I'm sure i'll remember something else, that wasn't "it". Thank you once again folks.

[Indefatiguable]

Addendum #2

ah I've remembered!

Trentepieds: that's a proposed 10k a year for flicka maintenance? eesh! is that including slip/mooring fees? that's far greater than I had intended, as yet our passive income totals 1.7k monthly with a 5k annual kicker though I had intended to grow that somewhat.


33tripindaisy: 1st, epic username 2nd, and I say this to all, but with your comment as reference, I have no intention of buying the "best" boat for any one thing, and I will only be buying one boat. I need that boat to be acceptably capable of handling a wide variety of voyaging - literally everything from the great loop to a cape rounding - this need is what originally led me to the flicka, I had found myself under the impression that it really doesn't do too well at any one thing, but it DOES do everything. see my reasoning? As always, please do elucidate as I am here seeking knowledge on the issue Also, I will absolutely look at the cape dory's, they're on the list - as it were.


thanks again to all, and I look forward to our continuing discussion with great earnest.

[TrentePieds]

Indef:

Yes, 10K/year is for any small boat kept afloat. $4K or thereabouts for moorage, 1K for annual haulout c/w paint and zincs (scimping on either of which can cost you dearly!), Insurance $1K, sundry bits and pieces of consumables $1K, Amortization of suit of sails $1K, Amortization of standing rigging $1K, Amortization of engine $1K.

Total about $10K. As you see, most of this is actual outta pocket each year. The amortization items should be provided for by a "sinking fund"- a rigorously serviced savings account= so you will not be caught "high and dry" but have the cash on hand when you need to replace the said items.

If you've realized the trailerable is a snare and a delusion, the DON'T go for anything too cramped because you can get a 30-footer for $5K acquisition cost these days and the difference in ownership cost twixt a 25 footer and a 30 footer is negligible.

As I think I counselled before: Go where you want to go but go there with your eyes open!

If I may, I will, exceptionally, comment that 1.7K/month is NOT enuff to sustain a family AND a boat. A dream delayed is surely better than a family destroyed! You will need minimally $4K/month to do the job decently IME.

TP

[Indefatiguable]

Hey TP,

Thank you for your prompt reply, and absolutely thank you for a "hard number" to guide myself with as per annual boat maintenance/overhead - I had been looking for one for some time.

Whereas I do believe one's needs are different from anothers, I appreciate your advice on annual/monthly needs and tolerances, and appreciate your input - I've been calculating monthly "non boat" needs at roughly 150% of current "non boat" expenses - to accommodate differences in available supply of goods, markups very present in desirable locale for said goods, etc (again for "non boat" expenditures here) - how do you feel about that 150% approximation? I guess what i'm asking here is what's the proverbial price of eggs in the virgin islands these days?


Also, I will and do keep a savings account for strictly maintenance as you suggest, although it will be bolstered significantly when I make the move off land (liquidation of a few nice cars to be specific).


Furthermore, I find myself with increasing agreement pertaining to the notion of purchasing a larger yacht - near the 30' mark or so - as I see virtually no reason to stick to something smaller...


I will continue to head forth eyes open as you recommend, thank you again.

[john61ct]

Westerly Centaur.

Beach it, let the tides go out, gunkholing where a full keel can't even consider going

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Westerly Centaur.

Beach it, let the tides go out, gunkholing where a full keel can't even consider going

The question is why would you want to beach it? Depending on where you are, it could be a mud bank or covered with brush not to mention the bugs

Most full keel boats of that size have a 3.5' - 4' draft which allows you to get way up most creeks and have a good sleep with basically zero wave action

You will also most likely be the only boat in the area ........

[TrentePieds]

Indef:

While I'm here and note John's post:

Yes, once you are away from "civilization" a Centaur - or any other twin-keeler ("bilge-keeler") is a very good choice for a long term cruiser. You pay for the very considerable advantages such a boat offers the indigent cruising man by giving up some weatherliness.

However, IMO (subject to much disagreement and abuse) the "cruiser/racer", i.e. the vast plurality of boats available in the secondhand market today, are greatly deficient qua cruising boats.

The reasons for that are too numerous to launch into in a post like this. It would really take an entire book proceeding from a LONG think about, and minute-to-minute analysis of, what actually HAPPENS aboard a cruiser both while on passage and when lying by in exotic places.

We can come back to that :-)

And since you asked about costs and budgeting: I have something to say about that as the day wears on.

TP

[TrentePieds]

Indef:

As it happens, there is rather a strong relationship between the question you posed: “how do you feel about that 150% approximation?”, and the counsel I gave you in regards to ownership expenses. But this answer will have to be much more complex.

You obviously live ashore for the moment, and that entails Occupancy Expenses. I live ashore too, and my occupancy expenses (including property taxes, heat, laundry, snow removal – the works) are $300/month. Were I daft enuff to live in Vancouver, they would be a minimum of 3 THOUSAND a month. I am, as you may have surmised, advanced in years, but having chosen 65 years ago, when the choice between Canada and the US was mine to make, to settle in the “socialist” land, I have my medical insurance premiums for both me and my wife paid ALMOST entirely by “the state”. The monthly premium is, IIRC, C$152. And, so say the powers that be, as of 01 January 2020 they will be reduced to ZIP! Yet our medical facilities here are fully the equal, QUALITATIVELY, of those found in the US. So maintaining a residence ashore, and living with the need to be physically present in the Province of BC for a minimum of 182 days a year to retain the coverage, is no hardship for me. Besides, the Salish Sea, our very own “Inland Sea” here in BC, is a cruising ground so lovely and so vast that there is no reason to go elsewhere :-)

I mention this because making strategy down to THAT level is, IMO, a cruising man's responsibility if he has a family to take care of. So having broken the piggy bank and paid cash for a condominium and paid cash for the boat, means that I only have to find the $10K for the boat every year and thereafter some additional sum for food. Obviously at the age MyBeloved and I are, there are no kiddie expenses, and Lord knows there are enuff clothes in the closets to last a lifetime. The “socialist state” is kind enuff to provide more than we need. Obviously in large measure hat is because we've paid our income taxes for a long time, and because there is both a Provincial and Federal Sales Tax (12% of price) payable essentially on everything but food. Obviously we pay these sales taxes even now. But think about that in relation to what I say below.

For example, four years ago I needed new workshoes. As you know, workshoes are not cheap. I got a pair, brand new, still in the box, a perfect fit for the princely sum of C$7.- Got them at a goodwill store I just happened to stop at far from home, and I've worn them every day since. And they are still good. A month ago, in the goodwill store in the little town where TrentePieds lies, I found ANOTHER pair. It was “red tag day” at the store, so buying this pair, ALSO brand new, really hurt the pocket book :-)! Buck'n'an 'arf, they were, when all was said and done. My everyday workshirts I bought 30 years ago ex German Air Force surplus. I bought a dozen for twenny bux. My purpose in expanding on these things is that IMO the responsibility of a cruising man with a family to keep is to be PRO-ACTIVE! You must purchase what you need OPPORTUNISTICALLY, and that means that you need to have a clear picture of what you'll be needing 3 months, 6 months, 2 years from now, so that when you see a thing you know you'll need in the future, you can grab it at 1/10 the sticker price. “A tenth of sticker” is my benchmark, and obviously I cannot manage that on every purchase, but then a windfall like the above mentioned shoes makes up for that. Picked up a perfectly good table saw with a sticker of about 3 grand FOR FREE three years ago. A great boon to building my new nav station :-)!

Food is rather more difficult due to the rate of consumption and need for constant replenishent. My shoreside food budget is $20/day for the two of us, and we eat copiously and well. The secret here is that I've had the great good fortune that all my life I've had close friends from India and Africa. Plus when I came to these shores, I was never tempted to eat the foods Americans and Canadians commonly eat to their detriment. I cook as European, Indian and Africans peasants do. KP is mine tonight and dinner will be a traditional dish from the British Raj, called Kedgeree (pronounced Kit-cher-ri). It happens to be rather expensive requiring 60¢ worth of eggs and 90¢ worth of tinned salmon per (generous) portion. Starch often comes from legumes such as chickpeas. I loathe corn on the cob, though kernels are okay but not very good value for money, so corn doesn't happen often. I love spuds, but never in my life have I bought a packet of potato chips. Nor will I. Requests from our little grandaughter for that sort of thing get deflected. The long and the short of it is that peasant food is essentially the same all over the world. The distinctions lie in the spices you use, as expressed in the sauces, and in the visual presentation. In keeping with all I said and implied above in respect of being systematic, setting up a 30 day meal plan that you can rotate through 12 times a year is a very sound procedure enabling you to make opportunitic purchases of vittels, as well as a mighty boon to managing the stowage of foodstuffs aboard. You need to make both a meal plan and a stowage plan The meal plan needs to be based on a good knowledge of nutrition, so that you and your family will have a sound, balanced diet regardless of where in the world you are.

And think about what I said about Indian cooking. India is a very hot country, as well as perversively very poor. Only a small proportion of the population has refrigeration even today. If you cook the Indian way, your boat does NOT need to have refrigeration, and that simplifies all kinds of other things about the boat.

So given my approach to such things I think it is even possible that you could reduce your present non-boat expenses to half of what they are now. The only way to know, is to set a strict budget and to MONITOR it daily. I track ours EVERY day. Blew it yesterday. Total food expenditures for the period ended yesterday was thirty seven cents over budget. My fault too. And I got “spoken to” :-)

Now, I think that's enuff for now, except that if you would be a cruising man you CANNOT just take you American shore-derived life style aboard with you. You (and you family) will do far better if you are willing and able to make very substantial adjustments to the common NA life style. And when you've finished doing that, you can begin to learn about all the many and extensive subjects you, as skipper, will have to know about.

One of our members is actually reporting every month on HIS actual cruising expenses. You might like to go in search of the thread :-)

All the best :-)

TP

[Stormsignal]

Consider the 24ft Aquarius Pilot Cutter.

Review: The Aquarius Pilot Cutter 24 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org

There is one for sale in Florida:https://www.popyachts.com/cutter-sai...florida-163968

[Totuma]

I actually had to go register once I saw this thread... LOL.
We own an 1980. They are unique boats in that there really is little to be found 20' long but that 'thinks' it's 28. We have a full 6'+ standing room, a head, a galley, a 20gal water tank, a decent sized icebox, a 14gal fuel tank and a 13hp Beta. I doubt you'd want to try to fit in multiple watermakers and yes, you do have to pack carefully. No dink (hate towing) but we do have a substantial tandem inflatable kayak stashed. Would love to bring our folding bikes but no room. No real nav station, and not a place we want to entertain 2 other couples. It is what it is - a great little cruiser that inspires confidence.

It's easy to start looking at FC, BCC, and other 'salty' not-so-little-boats but with everyone comes a compromise (and generally speaking, 2x the cost up-front).
Cheers!

[wildernessdave]

I have only day sailed on a Flicka, but it was certainly a very sturdy boat.

My wife and I have been cruising full time on a Vancouver 27 for the last year Great Lakes to the Bahamas and now we are in Nova Scotia. It is on the small side but we find it to have plenty of room for us and I would highly recommend it as an option for a small boat if you decide the Flicka is not for you.

We looked at Cape Dory 25, that could be worth looking at. They are trailerable and many have an outboard engine in built in lazerette, which makes it easy, and cheap to repair or replace the engine if it breaks down because small outboards are found all over the place.

[Tom Emery]

Originally Posted by Indefatiguable

Hey folks,

As the title says I'm pretty heavily considering buying a Flicka. I intend to live aboard with my wife and cruise pretty much full time. I'm reasonably sure we'll start in the great lakes area as that's "home", but I want to do the great loop and island hop the Caribbean along with travelling to far off destinations someday like Europe, Hawaii, etc (key word there is "someday").


A bit about us that may prove relevant

I lived in a hennesy hammock for years wandering around the Midwest US until I met my wife and her (then) 6 month old and 1 1/2 year old kids. Obviously we couldn't all sleep in my hammock, so we bought a 1990 vandura 2500 camper van and lived in that for many years while "land cruising" the US. As the kids got bigger, we decided to convert a de-commissioned school bus into an RV so we had more space, it's about 35' x 8.5' interior space - and WAY too big. honestly, the extra room is acceptable but it's too much to clean and soon enough the kids will be gone so I'm looking for something SIGNIFICANTLY smaller to live aboard.

In my younger days I did the beer can races on lake Michigan on a J/92 and a beneteau first 10r, but never skippered outside of a stint as "designated helmsman" once for a few hours.

As stated above, I have every intention of cruising larger rivers and the ICW, and ideally need to "start small" with day trips on local waters progressing to longer and longer passages as I remember/learn what exactly the heck I'm doing. The longest race i'd ever been on was the hook race on lake Michigan taking less than a week round trip.

Anyway, since trailerability, shallow draft, passage making capability (properly equipped of course), and the ability to live aboard permanently are paramount my search for the "right" boat has led me to the flicka, which leads me to my questions...


Many of the flickas for sale fall within a very narrow age range - namely '77 - '81, outside of the design changes in '83 - does anyone have any thoughts as to why that is? I've been to too many used car auctions to discount it as coincidence, and i'm thinking a major component is "aging out". Also, how easy is it to install rod holders to the stern? what about redundant water makers? whereas I again have every intention of slowly building up towards full time blue water cruising, I am only going to buy ONE boat so I need a "do it all" bugger. it seems from what I read that the main drawbacks to the flicka are space and speed - both of which i'm prepared to accept, again assuming im not missing something here...


anyway, sorry for the extremely long post, and thanks in advance for any and all advice or insight you can offer.

I applaud your commitment. Having lived on various sailboats for over 30 years my recommendation is to GO BIG. My first sailboat was a 27' converted Navy Whaleboat. My last was a Kelly Peterson 41. I can not conceive of spending any length of time on anything as small as a Flicka. Weekends...great. Liveaboard...no way.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Indef:

Yes, 10K/year is for any small boat kept afloat. $4K or thereabouts for moorage, 1K for annual haulout c/w paint and zincs (scimping on either of which can cost you dearly!), Insurance $1K, sundry bits and pieces of consumables $1K, Amortization of suit of sails $1K, Amortization of standing rigging $1K, Amortization of engine $1K.

Total about $10K. As you see, most of this is actual outta pocket each year. The amortization items should be provided for by a "sinking fund"- a rigorously serviced savings account= so you will not be caught "high and dry" but have the cash on hand when you need to replace the said items.

If you've realized the trailerable is a snare and a delusion, the DON'T go for anything too cramped because you can get a 30-footer for $5K acquisition cost these days and the difference in ownership cost twixt a 25 footer and a 30 footer is negligible.

As I think I counselled before: Go where you want to go but go there with your eyes open!

If I may, I will, exceptionally, comment that 1.7K/month is NOT enuff to sustain a family AND a boat. A dream delayed is surely better than a family destroyed! You will need minimally $4K/month to do the job decently IME.

TP

I think these numbers are ridiculously high

I paid $2,000 for my boat in 2011 and have put another $10k into it with upgrades and maintenance in 8 years

Docking has averaged about $2,760/yr which equals just over $4k/yr

I have replaced the Dodger, Mainsail Cover, the diesel with an Outboard, added 165 watts of solar and 4 controllers (one a Victron 75/15 MPPT) gone thru two outboard brackets, replaced the autopilot and bought a spare, replaced the mainsail, sanded and painted the bottom 3X, painted the interior, deck, cockpit, and topside hulls. And replaced the two batteries once

I have replaced two cabin lamps with LED lamps and replaced the old curtains with shades. Replaced the running rigging, and plan to replace the rigging in 4 more years

All this was completed during the off seasons. I was sailing the boat within a month after I bought it

Insurance is $10/month

[clockwork orange]

One thing I never see mentioned, maybe because nobody even realizes it, is that if you ever need certain work professionally done it will often cost more for the same work on small boat than it does for a larger boat because of access issues, it is just plain difficult to find pathways to run wiring, plumbing, ducting etc when you are trying to pack too much in to a small space. It is difficult enough on larger boats but is amplified on these tiny boats when folks want to jamb in stuff that the boats were never intended to accommodate. I recently had to install an espar diesel heater in a 24ft cult boat that already had a diesel inboard and all that entails, bow thruster, hot water heater, large battery bank, holding tank and all the large thru hull seacock, hoses etc and large diaphragm pump for overboard discharge, auto pilot, pressure water, electronic package and on and on. In other word, everything you would have on a 40ft boat but jamb packed in a ridiculously tiny space. I nicknamed it the five pound bag, as in ten pounds of #@%$ in a five pound bag. Now try to find somewhere to safely locate a heater where you need to meet clearances for things like hot exhaust and fuel lines and to run large ducting thru the boat. Its kind of amusing that one of the great attributes assigned to heavy displacement boats, that of the ability to carry the big payload of cruising supplies is squandered by absurdly heavy construction, all of the largely unneccesary items mentioned above which take up so much of the little storage space anyway that you couldn't carry much payload if you wanted to. I spent much more time installing this heater than I would have on a sensible boat and at our charge out rate much more expensive. These silly little cult boats tend to be massively built by the brute force and ignorance approach, ie, not well engineered, just throw a lot of material at it and people will think they are strong.


Steve.

[TrentePieds]

Thomm225:

I'm glad to hear you get off so much cheaper than I do. :-) The actual, realizable numbers depend, as you know, very much on where you are located, and how much work you are able to do yourself. And on how much work you are WILLING to do yourself. That is why I always counsel cautious budgeting as an antidote to enthusiasm. "Belt AND suspenders" as we accountants say :-)

The OP has stated both explicitly and implicitly not only that he has learned a lot from this thread but also that he needs to, because he new to cruising. So you can help him some more by telling us where you are located, and how much of the work you mention you did yourself, and how much was farmed out. If you have kept invoices for any work you have had done by others, then quoting those prices would also be helpful to the OP and to others.

For example: I wanted to renew the snap fasteners on the canvas covers for my pilothouse windows, A total of 54 fasteners, if I recall. Because the particular tool required to do that costs about C$250 and because I don't (anymore) have one in my kit, I got a quote from a canvasman: C$230 + tax, materials extra . So in terms of money, it'd be a toss-up. I'm 80 y.o. so I'm not likely to ever have to do that job or need that tool again. So you can imagine which way that decision went.

On the other hand, 'Round about '67 I bought a Seabird. The Day/Mower design. She had cotton sails. So I bought the materials and made her a new suit. The cost I've long since forgotten, but it made sense at the time because I was young, energetic, loved the challenge and had the skills and the time. Budget was also important, as I was a student at the time.

So let's help the OP along by giving him real world numbers (as are my numbers though you think them high). Let's be careful about just what it is we are costing. You say Insurance is $10/month. i.e. 360/year. I don't doubt you. I'd just like to know if that's Liability only or if it is Hull & Liability insurance, and if so what the face value of the policy is. My Insurance is H & L costing $C720/year for a standard policy valid in the Salish Sea with a face value of C$39K.

So, again, the OP is starting "from square one". Let us therefore try to help him by helping him to lay a realistic budget based in HIS circumstances.

All the best

TrentePieds