Thinking of buying a Flicka 20

[TrentePieds]

Steve Clockwork:

Much truth is spoken by frustration :-)! Lets hope the OP is still with us to see your post.

TP

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Thomm225:

I'm glad to hear you get off so much cheaper than I do. :-) The actual, realizable numbers depend, as you know, very much on where you are located, and how much work you are able to do yourself. And on how much work you are WILLING to do yourself. That is why I always counsel cautious budgeting as an antidote to enthusiasm. "Belt AND suspenders" as we accountants say :-)

The OP has stated both explicitly and implicitly not only that he has learned a lot from this thread but also that he needs to, because he new to cruising. So you can help him some more by telling us where you are located, and how much of the work you mention you did yourself, and how much was farmed out. If you have kept invoices for any work you have had done by others, then quoting those prices would also be helpful to the OP and to others.

For example: I wanted to renew the snap fasteners on the canvas covers for my pilothouse windows, A total of 54 fasteners, if I recall. Because the particular tool required to do that costs about C$250 and because I don't (anymore) have one in my kit, I got a quote from a canvasman: C$230 + tax, materials extra . So in terms of money, it'd be a toss-up. I'm 80 y.o. so I'm not likely to ever have to do that job or need that tool again. So you can imagine which way that decision went.

On the other hand, 'Round about '67 I bought a Seabird. The Day/Mower design. She had cotton sails. So I bought the materials and made her a new suit. The cost I've long since forgotten, but it made sense at the time because I was young, energetic, loved the challenge and had the skills and the time. Budget was also important, as I was a student at the time.

So let's help the OP along by giving him real world numbers (as are my numbers though you think them high). Let's be careful about just what it is we are costing. You say Insurance is $10/month. i.e. 360/year. I don't doubt you. I'd just like to know if that's Liability only or if it is Hull & Liability insurance, and if so what the face value of the policy is. My Insurance is H & L costing $C720/year for a standard policy valid in the Salish Sea with a face value of C$39K.

So, again, the OP is starting "from square one". Let us therefore try to help him by helping him to lay a realistic budget based in HIS circumstances.

All the best

TrentePieds

Ok TP.

I'm trying to think back, but I just read the Clockwork Orange post on installing a heater in tight spot.

I replaced the gear box only on my boat when I first bought it after the old one froze up. Talk about a tight spot

Later I would learn that it's almost easier to remove the engine and gear box to replace the gear box alone than the way I did it.

I had the prop shaft thruhull and one bad spot on the hull epoxied over by the boatyard owner back in 2011. He also built the angled piece that the outboard's bracket mounts to before the bolts go thru the stern and installed the first bracket. I believe all this was maybe $600 which was ridiculously expensive I thought

The diesel and all associated equipment was removed by me. The diesel using the boom at the correct tide so I could swing it over onto the dock

It was a very small boat yard on the Eastern Shore of Virginia maybe 7 miles out in the Boonies from Onancock.

The boat and I are in the Hampton Roads area now. I sailed it the 75 miles down here in 2012 after having replaced the diesel with a new 5 HP 4 stroke 25" extra long shaft outboard

All the other work I have done myself except for two trips by a contractor to make VHF Antenna repairs. This was $300 for both 5 years apart. I probably should have bought a mast mate

The boat though was left here (at the boatyard near Onancock) maybe 600 miles from the PO's home. He had been on a two year cruise from Falmouth, MA to Florida and the Bahamas

It had sat 5 years on the hard since April 2006. I bought it in June 2011 and I was loaded with everything needed for cruising including 5 anchors 2 of which had heavy chain and rode, autopilot, newish jib, GPS (2), Depth, VHF

Insurance is Liability only. $500,000 as the marina requires

The boat was an estate sale by the son who was located in California. The boat had no for sale sign on it when I found it. I saw it (I grew up near that boatyard which was near several crab houses which operated back in the day where we'd go to get bait. Peeler crabs) when I was cruising around one afternoon.

I had been studying the boats on the Atom Voyages website and thought it might be a 28' Pearson Triton so I asked if there were any boats for sale

Pictures are from 2011 and this past Spring

And btw, I think this is I believe my 12th boat. 5th sailboat if you count the sailing dinghy in the picture on my page here I got in 1983. The other 4 were beach cats that I raced. Two Hobie 16's used, one Nacra 6.0 new, and one Nacra I17R (Nacra F-17 these days) The rest were old beatup power boats I had in my teens and early 20's

Standing rigging has yet to be replaced as have any of the thruhulls. I did replace the tiller this summer and was able to find two flat winch handles on ebay last Winter.

I'm still at around $4K per year.....slip used to be $216/month but is now $243/month but I just recently got 2 months free for resigning a one year contract and not moving

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The question is why would you want to beach it? Depending on where you are, it could be a mud bank or covered with brush not to mention the bugs

Most full keel boats of that size have a 3.5' - 4' draft which allows you to get way up most creeks and have a good sleep with basically zero wave action

You will also most likely be the only boat in the area ........

Well, if he is thinking of NW Europe then twin keels make a lot of sense, just not sure I want to do even a single Atlantic crossing on a Centaur. It has been done and there was a recent blog or YT vlog, by a young couple who sailed from the UK to the Caribbean in a Centaur, then promptly sold it. One problem will be the volume of stores you can take for the trip like water and food and it will be a long trip at 4 knots. Jump to 30 - 32 feet and now we are talking of 5 - 5.5 knots cruising speed. That is a big difference on a long passage and you have much greater volume for stores.

Inde, just a comment about Europe twin keels make great sense for the north west with the huge tides, drying harbours and rivers. Just be aware that some of the mainland European canals are actually rivers and big ones needing a good engine to push your way up them. However the difference in draft between 3'3" and 4' isn't going to be a problem. We draw 3'8" btw and yes we dry out regularly because marinas are expensive £35-£42 for a posh UK south coast marina. Cheap boat yard up a river or quaint drying harbour £20 a night.

The shot of us tied to a buoy (pronounced "boy" ) was taken last night. The river warden didn't even turn up for his £12 as it involves a 1 hour round trip in the launch for him.

The photo of the yacht is what happens when you get it wrong. The fin keel didn't sit in its normal mud hole but the rest of the yacht did, oops.

30 feet will be much more comfortable (its going to be your home) and faster for little extra maintenance costs.

[TrentePieds]

Good stuff, Thomm :-)

This is the kind of info the OP needs to get inside his skull to evaluate his own needs and opportunities. :-)

Now, for MY money an Alberg27 (even if it is called a "Bristol") would be a bit on the tight side for man, wife and two kiddies. But à chacun son gout. I believe I said something like "do what you want to do, but do it with your eyes open" :-)

On the upside, the Alberg27, like a LOT of boats of that vintage, is far better behaved under cruising conditions, than are many more recent boats. That's down to the fundamental design concept. We can then begin to debate how best to fit out the boat. Let's take an example of that:

The OP is a neophyte. HE may not know at this time, but I sure as heck do, that should he drop he wife overboard, he will NEVER get her back in without mechanical assistance. Not even a kiddie would he get back in! So what does that imply for the outfitting?

In MY book it means that the boom MUST have a running topping lift, so it can be used as a cargo boom. It means that a roller furling main is OUT!!!

In MY book wheel steering is OUT because it consumes so much of your laying about and working on your tan space. And of space for sending naughty kiddies to their room :-) It consumes far too much "sundowner" space. Well the Alberg27 is a luverly choice from that point of view. It is tiller steered unless somebody has buggered it about.

What about ground tackle? Well, in a boat the size the OP is contemplating, he can prolly get by with what the boat comes with. Checking shackles and splices is OBVIOUSLY essential, but that's basically costless. Has he "bought in" to the notion that he needs anchor handling gear? I don't know if he has. I have a Lofrans X2 capstan that came with the boat. I never use it except to drop the rode through the spurling. I use old-fashioned [VERY old-fashioned :-)] seamanship instead. Mr. Armstrong does any pulley-hauley there is to do. Replacing that Lofrans would cost C$2,700 for the machine itself plus whatever a "marine electrician" would charge for the re&re. As it happens, the silly thing DID pack it in. Because I have a reasonable knowledge of these kinds of things, the cost fixing THAT problem was 3¢ worth of butt splice.

We can go on, but you get the drift. A real problem for lubbers going to sea is that they don't know how much they don't know :-) The job that you and I have before us is that of setting them to thinking along useful lines, so that they will come to know the things they don't know. And better still, so they will come to know that they DID know it - they just didn't know that they knew it :-)!

Cheers

TP

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Good stuff, Thomm :-)

This is the kind of info the OP needs to get inside his skull to evaluate his own needs and opportunities. :-)

Now, for MY money an Alberg27 (even if it is called a "Bristol") would be a bit on the tight side for man, wife and two kiddies. But à chacun son gout. I believe I said something like "do what you want to do, but do it with your eyes open" :-)

On the upside, the Alberg27, like a LOT of boats of that vintage, is far better behaved under cruising conditions, than are many more recent boats. That's down to the fundamental design concept. We can then begin to debate how best to fit out the boat. Let's take an example of that:

The OP is a neophyte. HE may not know at this time, but I sure as heck do, that should he drop he wife overboard, he will NEVER get her back in without mechanical assistance. Not even a kiddie would he get back in! So what does that imply for the outfitting?

In MY book it means that the boom MUST have a running topping lift, so it can be used as a cargo boom. It means that a roller furling main is OUT!!!

In MY book wheel steering is OUT because it consumes so much of your laying about and working on your tan space. And of space for sending naughty kiddies to their room :-) It consumes far too much "sundowner" space. Well the Alberg27 is a luverly choice from that point of view. It is tiller steered unless somebody has buggered it about.

What about ground tackle? Well, in a boat the size the OP is contemplating, he can prolly get by with what the boat comes with. Checking shackles and splices is OBVIOUSLY essential, but that's basically costless. Has he "bought in" to the notion that he needs anchor handling gear? I don't know if he has. I have a Lofrans X2 capstan that came with the boat. I never use it except to drop the rode through the spurling. I use old-fashioned [VERY old-fashioned :-)] seamanship instead. Mr. Armstrong does any pulley-hauley there is to do. Replacing that Lofrans would cost C$2,700 for the machine itself plus whatever a "marine electrician" would charge for the re&re. As it happens, the silly thing DID pack it in. Because I have a reasonable knowledge of these kinds of things, the cost fixing THAT problem was 3¢ worth of butt splice.

We can go on, but you get the drift. A real problem for lubbers going to sea is that they don't know how much they don't know :-) The job that you and I have before us is that of setting them to thinking along useful lines, so that they will come to know the things they don't know. And better still, so they will come to know that they DID know it - they just didn't know that they knew it :-)!

Cheers

TP

I was never saying the OP should get a Bristol (Alberg) 27.

I actually recommended (on his Westerly Centaur post) that he check the Atom Voyages Old Boat List.

He then realized that the small Flicka 20 was not the only boat in his price range

The Flicka 20 is also going to be much slower than most of the boats on the list also and be more like a floating cork or bobber

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html

The problem though with many that request information here on CF is that they don't know enough to know what to select and that cannot be taught in a few posts

Because you have to know a bit before you will know...…

It's like the guy that goes out and buys a big sailboat and starts to cruise.

He will possibly never know how to actually sail it to it's fullest capabilities without having raced small boats or sailed on small boats

[TrentePieds]

And a lot of it is cultural :-) The moment someone sez "Bristol", what I see in my minds eye is one of these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjtOWKDkHCY

Obviously NOT what a neophyte should be getting, but, I think, right up there alongside the Redningssköjte for sheer beauty and utility as a cruiser. But then, I have been accused of being an unreconstructed romantic. But we really only sail because it's a romantic thing to do, don't we :-)?

And that clip is a wonderful excuse to launch into an apologia for the gaff rig. These things were 40 to 50 feet and something like 30 tons displacement. As you see, they were, like the redningssköjte, tiller-steered. More things for the OP to cogitate on! Why were they tiller-steered when wheel steering had been known for 200 years when these boats were current? Is there something about the cutter rig that the OP should be cogitating on? What are the similarities twixt the operating conditions he, as a family cruising man, might find himself in, and the conditions in which these boats won fame and fortune for their owners?

TP

[barnakiel]

I had a glimpse at YW listings and was surprised to see Flickas are so relatively expensive. They are just 20' but tend to ask roughly 1.5x the price of otherwise equally well built 30'footers.


No doubt they fetch what they are worth and probably no issue to many US buyers though.


barnakiel

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I had a glimpse at YW listings and was surprised to see Flickas are so relatively expensive. They are just 20' but tend to ask roughly 1.5x the price of otherwise equally well built 30'footers.

No doubt they fetch what they are worth and probably no issue to many US buyers though.

barnakiel

Yes but why would you want to pay that much for a boat that small and slow?

And they are pretty light at only 5500 # displacement

[john61ct]

Their resale price is justified by the brilliant seaworthy design & robust build quality.

Nor'sea, Bristol 27s, Tartan, Islanders, Cape Dory, Falmouth*Cutter, Vancouver, Pacific Seacraft

unlikely you find much cheaper.

Some people really **want** a smaller boat that acts like a bigger one.

[barnakiel]

Yep. I guess it is just a fair market based on demand / supply. Some people want just this boat, no alternative.


It would be an ultimate fun exercise to see what boats would be the most popular IF we could all afford our dreams. My bet is the situation would be roughly as is now, except boats would be much much bigger in nearly any single case.


b.

[john61ct]

In my case, a hard beam limit of 8.5' - but as seaworthy as possible, suitable for upfitting for passagemaking - whittles the list right down.

Which is nice, more choices makes the search harder.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Their resale price is justified by the brilliant seaworthy design & robust build quality.

Nor'sea, Bristol 27s, Tartan, Islanders, Cape Dory, Falmouth*Cutter, Vancouver, Pacific Seacraft

unlikely you find much cheaper.

Some people really **want** a smaller boat that acts like a bigger one.

When I bought my boat the guy wanted $2,000 but also had a Tartan 27 for $500.

I'm not seeing that the Flicka 20 has anymore of a robust build quality than my $2,000 Bristol 27.


Usually a boat like mine would sell for $4,000 - $6,000 not $29,000 - $40,000 like some ask for a Flicka 20

Judge for yourself.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/flicka-20

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-27

[john61ct]

It would be rare to get those models at those prices in good condition without extensive searching over a long period of time, or a lot of luck, likely both.

Congratulations.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by john61ct

It would be rare to get those models at those prices in good condition without extensive searching over a long period of time, or a lot of luck, likely both.

Congratulations.

Really?

I'm thinking you could get this Cape Dory 26 for $8,000 -$9,000

https://norfolk.craigslist.org/boa/d...946082998.html

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cape-dory-26

Tartan 30. $3,500

https://outerbanks.craigslist.org/bo...961146900.html

Even this Alberg 30 at $18,500 seems to be a much better deal than a Flicka 20 at $29,000 - $40,000. This boat though looks great!

Damn! Now I want to go see it. I used to live near there also and it's only like 3 hours or so away these day with the new roads

https://eastnc.craigslist.org/boa/d/...949160129.html

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/alberg-30

[SKG56]

Just buy a Westsail 32, it will take you anywhere and also take care of you, about 30k will get you a good one, perfect for 2, storage, fuel capacity and so much more