Tallships. Which one?

[Jackofall]

So I am entertaining the idea of buying a tallship and converting it back into a cargo ship and starting a trading company similar to fairtransport and tres hombres.......so someone please slap me back into reality. 😁

Back to the dream: I've noticed that the very few cargo tallships are all two masted ships around 30 meters in length. I am currently looking at ships that have three masts and are between 40-50 meters in length. It seems a bigger boat will hold more cargo thus higher profits , but also needs a bigger crew. So the question is, which Tallship for full time cargo sailing? Why not a 45 meter three masted gaff rigged schooner over a two masted 30 meter?
I have no clue what I am doing here. Please help.

Before I make any wrong descisions* I do plan on joining one of these voyages to get first hand experience and to see if its something I really want.
Until then lets talk about hypotheticals.

* Sailing a tallship solo is more realistic then that statement.

Got popcorn?

[psk125]

Going for a larger vessel puts you in competition with diesel-powered freighters. Not just for the cargo, but for harbor space. Your costs, what with crew size and insurance on a larger boat, will outpace those of diesel freighters. That is why diesel freighters took over from sail-cargo vessels. Smaller sail cargo vessels can get into ports that aren't served by the bigger freighters, and so provide a service that could be valuable to customers who don't have to go to the "big city" and have their goods trucked from there. You are serving a niche market and need a vessel that fits the niche exactly. Neoline is working on a sail cargo vessel that is supposed to average about 12 knots on transatlantic runs between France and the U.S. https://www.neoline.eu/en/. They have identified the shippers and cargo -the niche they plan to fill- and expect to start trips in a few years. They have studied the wind patterns, year-round, as well as the harbors they plan to use.
Before you pick a vessel you need to determine where you plan to operate, what you plan to carry, and whether there is a market for what you plan to offer. Deciding that you want a 40-50m, 3-masted vessel before you know the answers to the first questions is putting the cart before the horse. It is like saying you want to buy the Budweiser Clydesdale team and wagon before finding out that Kiddie-farm hayrides are the only thing you could use it for. Kiddie-farm hayrides will not support the capital investment, maintenance costs, and care & feeding of the animals. Switch your thinking around if you expect to make this business model work.

[Jim Cate]

Switch your thinking around if you expect to make this business model work.

Business model? Surely you jest...

Jim

[Don C L]

Is your goal to keep a tall ship alive, haul freight or make money? Are you trying to imagine which ship will be able to turn a profit? I can't imagine which freight could be valuable enough that it will provide for profit for the owner, decent pay for a crew and maintenance for the boat, while at the same time something that the customer is willing to wait longer for.
but, years ago I had a dream of turning a Gloucester schooner into a youth training ship. I still think that could work.

[GILow]

As one of the more recent commercial sailing fleets (I believe), you might want to read up a little about these, some ideas might be relevant.

https://www.samemory.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=626

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosqui...outh_Australia)

https://maritime.history.sa.gov.au/e...gh%20seafarers.

[Steve Bean]

Definitely get some first- hand experience with somebody doing this. It sounds like one of those enterprises of which it is said, "How to make a million dollars in XYZ: start with two million dollars."

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Steve Bean

... It sounds like one of those enterprises of which it is said, "How to make a million dollars in XYZ: start with two million dollars."

That may well be the business model mentioned earlier.

[Jackofall]

Thanks for the replies. PSK125 really hit the answer I was going for. Yes this business model can be and is profitable. Can I make higher returns elsewhere? Absolutely. But I'm not after the highest R.O.I. I'm looking for the lifestyle, camaraderie, and doing something good for the planet as well. The niche market that seems to most profitable would be the gourmet coffee bean market where customers are used to paying a higher price. Sail shipped beans are still within this acceptable price range that customers are willing to spend. Other possibilities are high end spices and other non perishables. You also have paying customers who want to join the voyage and volunteer as crew. Average price to join such a voyage is between $1,200-$5,000 a week. I would want a paid professional base crew on top of the volunteers for obvious reasons. Blue Schooner Company just unloaded 10 tons of Columbian beans in Amsterdam (I believe). 10 tons is a drop in the bucket for the coffee market.
So now I need to research all the best coffee ports, routes, etc.
Ship aged rum is also a seller.

I just want a three mast tall ship so I can sing old pirate songs and swab the decks with a close knit brother/sisterhood of a crew. Much like when I was younger and in the military. I miss that camaraderie. Cant find that anywhere in the corporate world.
I'm doing this for the lifestyle, not the rat race.

[Tillsbury]

It sounds fabulous and please make sure you’re tough enough to ignore the naysayers.

Having said that, the points made by psk125 above are very valid. Sail cargo is working between small ports in the uk and France, shorter journeys between small ports of high end luxury goods such as you mention, and small artisan products such as cheeses.

You should also be able to find willing and able crew to help for very little pay to gain experience or volunteer for such an eco/green endeavour. That would minimise the number of more qualified professional crew you’d need.

If you can make it at least break even and maintain the boat, it sounds like a great lifestyle.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

It sounds fabulous and please make sure you’re tough enough to ignore the naysayers.

Having said that, the points made by psk125 above are very valid. Sail cargo is working between small ports in the uk and France, shorter journeys between small ports of high end luxury goods such as you mention, and small artisan products such as cheeses.

You should also be able to find willing and able crew to help for very little pay to gain experience or volunteer for such an eco/green endeavour. That would minimise the number of more qualified professional crew you’d need.

If you can make it at least break even and maintain the boat, it sounds like a great lifestyle.

Agreed on the crew, this I imagine will be the largest cost by far if you pay for the crew. I think the crew should pay to be on board, or at least be volunteers, in that way you combine the concept of providing a sailing experience to people willing to pay, you deliver some cargoes here and there (short routes it would have to be) and you may just about break even. Done well I'm sure an article here and there in yachting magazines would be the result in turn establishing you nicely in the market place.

[Jackofall]

The crew question is big one, no doubt. So how much extra crew does that third mast take over a two masts? Gaffed rigged requires less crew than square rigged. From what I've read regarding the history of sail cargo, having that extra mast really helps when your cargo holds are full and you're weighed down. It allows you to sail faster and reduces the loads on the other masts thus reducing breakage. So first I need to identify these "coffee ports" and their requirements and restrictions. Then find a ship that can fit into these ports while still having a decent payload. With coffee beans its more about space than weight. One ton of beans is 1.78m3. A ship with 60,000 liter holding area can fit about 33 tons.
If I did my math right.

[Jackofall]

Also regarding the crew. I would still want a couple of paid professionals. For saftey and continuity. My idea would be some form of profit sharing as pay. That should keep those scallywagers motivated. Arrgh!

[Jackofall]

Would this ship fit into some of the smaller ports?

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...psail-3484962/

I think I'm falling in love with Lady Ellen. With a few modifications she looks like an excellent cargo ship.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by Jackofall

Would this ship fit into some of the smaller ports?

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...psail-3484962/

I think I'm falling in love with Lady Ellen. With a few modifications she looks like an excellent cargo ship.

I would too! But where would you put the cargo, unless it's human cargo (questionable idea) or very small and very valuable (probably even more questionable)?

[Jackofall]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

I would too! But where would you put the cargo, unless it's human cargo (questionable idea) or very small and very valuable (probably even more questionable)?

Most tallships nowadays are more like hotels including Lady Ellen. One would have to convert the hotel area back into a cargo hold. Keep the crew area, also keep a few rooms for paying guests/volunteers. Easy peasy no?

No its not as easy as it sounds but much, much easier than a total refit. Getting rid of 9+ heads should do the trick.
Again please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.