Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-08-2020, 17:52   #151
Registered User
 
chrisr's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Somewhere in French Polynesia
Boat: Dean 440 13.4m catamaran
Posts: 2,333
Re: Tallships. Which one?

hey, i just realised this plan might be a really good way to launder eg drug money or other illicit income

must give that some thought...

cheers,
__________________
"home is where the anchor drops"...living onboard in French Polynesia...maintaining social distancing
chrisr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2020, 18:47   #152
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Gabriola Is. BC
Boat: Newport 30, Sirius 21
Posts: 331
Images: 1
Re: Tallships. Which one?

It's a great idea! We need more people to get going, on small freight under sail.
Of course, startups have a 90% failure rate. Don't gamble on this if you can't afford to lose.
As Zorba said to the Boss, at the end of the whole adventure: "But Boss, didn't it make a wonderful crash?"

I think the passenger/crew income is necessary to make the business model work, at this time.
You may need to look at vessels that can carry passengers for hire, or be sure that your paying crew doesn't fall into the category of passengers.
In the Western world, vessels that can carry passengers have things like collision bulkheads, that pretty much have to be built into the hull when it's built. Such vessels exist, and come on the market. Just not every vessel qualifies.

One option to consider might be a school ship, where crew can get sea time toward their license, AB, Mate, Master, etc. It might not be difficult to provide some curriculum, possibly associate with an established school.

Go for it! In our old age, we remember the chances we took, and celebrate the noble failures as much as the successes. (from a 71 year old gambler)
gulfislandfred is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2020, 19:24   #153
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Boston
Boat: Farr 50 Pilothouse
Posts: 1,396
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisr View Post
hey, i just realised this plan might be a really good way to launder eg drug money or other illicit income

must give that some thought...

cheers,
Actually, I think it would be a terrible way to launder money.
Muaddib1116 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2020, 21:18   #154
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Boat: Pearson 367
Posts: 550
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muaddib1116 View Post
Actually, I think it would be a terrible way to launder money.
Yeah, that's what marinas are for! 😆😆😆
LLCoolDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2020, 00:54   #155
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Honokaa, Hawaii
Boat: SeaRunner 25, SeaRunner 37, 56-foot sailing fishing trimaran, (current) Oceanic Proa, 24 feet
Posts: 64
Re: Tallships. Which one?

No problem.

To run such a ship, you’d need to do the following if you’re going to carry cargo from any US port TO any US port. I’m sure other nations have similar requirements, so check the ports you’re going to carry to/from, this will tell you what certifications you’re going to need. In fact, you may need more than these certifications and licenses if you’re going to carry from a US port to a foreign port, these are the minimums for US-to-US ports:

1. You've got to get USCG documentation as a cargo carrier, in addition to the USCG passenger certification, this is called a COI, for Certificate Of Inspection.

The USCG Vessel Documentation Center for documentation as a cargo-carrying vessel is: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organization/Deputy-for-Operations-Policy-and-Capabilities-DCO-D/National-Vessel-Documentation-Center/ .

2. You've also got to get permits and register with the PUC in any State you’re going to dock in as an ocean cargo carrier. Although they have different contact addresses, you can often find them at: https://puc.statename.gov/contact

3. You've also got to get permits and register with your local State Harbors Division and satisfy their regulatory regime for shippers. Oh yeah, and talk them into leasing you a dock space to load and unload at, for which you'll need insurance, a fence (probably), night lighting, a building housing an office, waiting area for passengers, and so on (probably).

4. You've got to set up as a business in the US, either a corporation or an LLC, get an Excise Tax license, and find someone to run it.

This is important not only because you NEED someone to run it, but primarily because you need someone to take personal responsibility, ie sign their name as "responsible person" for things like insurance, contracts for cargo carriage, dock lease agreement, and so on.

5. You need #1, because without it, you’ll never find someone who will insure you as both a cargo carrier, and a passenger carrier. Numbers 2 and 3 will require proof of insurance, possibly even before issuing you any permits.

6. Some people considering new age shipping companies think they can "run it off the beach". Whose beach? Will the local Land And Natural Resources Department (or whatever it’s name is in the State you’re landing in) let you load off a beach? Will your insurance? Will the Coast Guard? The PUC? Harbors Division of that State? Non-profit conservation agencies and citizen's groups? You've got a lot of ducks to get into a line here.

7. In almost all places, you'll find there's a strong Longshoreman's Union, and you can't load or unload your ship yourself. Period. Better get to know them and negotiate some decent rates and conditions now.

8. Competition and political maneuvering: if you’re going into a shipping route that’s making money for someone else now, expect them to lobby against you being able to do it too, and possibly to be successful.

If you want a case history about what can go wrong, read about the Super Ferry in Hawaii; they had all the permits, licenses, EIS done and approved, and they got stopped by a dozen surfers on their surfboards, sitting in the entrance to Nawiliwili Harbor on Kauai.

A State judge ruled against them, saying they needed another EIS, and things went downhill from there. Tied up for nearly two years in legal actions, they went bankrupt and sold their ferries.

Oh yeah! You need a ship, too! And watch out for vessels that don’t comply with the Jones Act; you won’t be able to service ANY US ports from other US ports if you buy one of these.

I'd imagine you're starting to see what a complex, delicate, and long-term task this will be.

But don’t abandon the dream; just get realistic, get tough, get some funding from a source that believes in your ability to do this, and overcome the obstacles one by one.

With Warm Aloha, Tim
Kaimana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2020, 01:23   #156
Registered User
 
Buzzman's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: New South Wales, Australia
Boat: Still building
Posts: 1,557
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptWho View Post
This could work if you create your own ecosystem for your product. High quality liquor or coffee (or whatever) could be marketed to customers based on being environmentally friendly. If your pockets are deep enough, purchase your own product, transport it in bulk, package it and market it under your own vanity label with a picture of the vessel on it. There are people out there willing to pay top dollar for niche items like this. Like any startup there's a moderate risk of failure, but it would be pretty cool if you succeed. Best of luck.
This, essentially, is what Tres Hombres are sort of dong with their online shop.

The sensible route to profitability for such a project is to "establish the brand" and then use the sail-powered vessel to enable you to "meet" the "corproate goal" of "sustainable transport".

Whilst "establishing the brand" you could look at offsetting (rather than 'greenwashing') so do the first few 'cargoes' while your ship is 'outfitting' (or building).

From what the French guys website says they have three vessels shifting 130T of cargo per annum for around 300,000 Euro. If that was nett earnings, then a vessel capable of double that load (or double the trips in order to double the load) might be profitable.

Start small. Go for high-end consumables in which 'eco transport' and 'sustainability' can be 'marketable niches'.

As per the Tres Hombres example: rum, coffee, cacao.

Set up your own Rum Distillery or buy 'spriit' in SA and 'age' it one the journey. Bottle it in Europe. Sell globally.

Same with cacao. There was a guy featured in a doco on UK TV several years ago whose name was Willy something or other, and he was setting up a deluxe, high end chocolate brand, and suing cacao he had gorwn (or sourced) himself in Venezuela or Colombia. You could add 'shipped by sail' and earn 'eco points'.
[edit: Willy Harcourt-Couze. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie...olate_Factory]

Ditto coffee. Partner with boutique a roaster, who perhaps could co-fund the dream, and ship exclusively for them initially. Make part of the deal a backdraw of top-roasted coffee in your own packaging to sell globally via online website.

Marketing is going to be the key element to profitability.

Look at what boutique roasters make, and boutique chocolatiers.

Then look at making a doco of the whole 'set-up and sail' concept, and a a folow up 'Fair Trade Marketing' doco on selling the resultant products into global markets.

You'll probably make enough from the TV shows to fund the whole set up, after which it will be profitable.

Good luck!

PS: There's a group of old boat enthusiasts attempting to set up a sail cargo vessel on the Derwent and Huon Rivers in Tasmania. Saw it as part of a WBF doco but can't recall the name of the boat and google came up with nothing....
Buzzman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2020, 08:02   #157
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Beaufort, NC
Boat: Silverton, 36C, 40 ft., HoneyB
Posts: 2
Re: Tallships. Which one?

I wish you the absolute best of luck. However, this seems like one of those plans to take a large pile of money and make it a small one.
wdbox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2020, 10:00   #158
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Kennebunk ME
Boat: Owner built 60’ Aluminum Expedition Yacht.
Posts: 1,854
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Captain Kaimana. An accurate post in every respect. Detailed and needs no corrections. Brilliantly sets forth facts.
May the Menehunes protect your vessel.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark
Manateeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2020, 15:58   #159
Registered User
 
Tanqueray's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Indiana
Boat: O'Day 322
Posts: 152
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackofall View Post
Would this ship fit into some of the smaller ports?

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...psail-3484962/

I think I'm falling in love with Lady Ellen. With a few modifications she looks like an excellent cargo ship.
Bow thruster, submarine steel...what is not to live...and she looks gorgeous!

How about the cargo hold? She was designed to carry 100 passengers.

Sign me up for crew though! I am going to need a retirement gig soon....do you offer health insurance ?


Greg
Tanqueray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2020, 23:54   #160
Registered User
 
Icarus's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Brisbane
Boat: S&S 40
Posts: 1,044
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Some 40 years ago I was involved with the tall ship "Eye Of The Wind"
Annual running cost mounted up to 250k US
A major refit about a million..(1979)
You can easely tripple that for present times.
What I am hinting at is you need to have very deep pockets.
Imho, the romantic notion of dazzling customers of the latte society is debatable.
The other problem is the cost of litigation, which is most likely inevitable.
Viel Glück, du brauchst es.
Icarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2020, 02:32   #161
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 223
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanqueray View Post
Bow thruster, submarine steel...what is not to live...and she looks gorgeous!

How about the cargo hold? She was designed to carry 100 passengers.

Sign me up for crew though! I am going to need a retirement gig soon....do you offer health insurance ?
She doesn’t really look set up at ALL to haul cargo. She’s a passenger ship that may have a bit of awkward-to-access cargo space. You could do an overhaul to fix that but then you’re paying for an awful lot of fancy woodwork that you’re just going to rip out, which seems a waste.

For a ship primarily intended for cargo, getting cargo in and out needs to be straightforward and relatively easy - the more time you need to spend paying people to move stuff around, the less money you make.
PirateFoxy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2020, 07:28   #162
Registered User
 
DeValency's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Boston
Boat: Farr 40 (Racing), Contest 43 (Cruising)
Posts: 950
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Kudos for the OP for generating the forum largest number of responses(?) within the shortest time!

Across from my windows in Boston there is a real three masted tall ship (NOT the amazing USS Constitution frigate, aka “Ironside”, this one is still fully commissioned US Navy vessel in full service.)

But docked in the other side of the harbor:
She was purchased in Canada over a year ago to serve as a floating bar-restaurant along the old Navy Yard’s dry-dock 2. We still hope to see her running this possibly viable business. A more sane use than a cargo ship... but what do I know
__________________
S/V GDY-Kids: back in the US after years in Europe, the Med and the Caribbean.
https://www.instagram.com/gdykidscontest/
DeValency is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2020, 10:43   #163
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Ann Arbor
Boat: Spindrift 22
Posts: 25
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdeuel View Post
You certainly *could* roast aboard. Probably want to do it at landfall, as coffee starts to go stale about a week post-roast. Gas production roasters use incredible amounts of fuel, and trying to do it with propane would require a LOT of propane. Better to look at electric fluid-bed roasters. Coffee Crafters in WA puts out a solid product, 220v, that can roast 70#/hour.
Interesting and potentially relevant story here about a small start-up based on the invention of a commercial-grade solar-powered coffee roaster. Probably a bit tricky to adapt for ship-board use, but could make for a compelling partnership with respect to the emerging value proposition here. How many companies can offer coffee beans shipped by wind power and roasted by the sun? I expect these guys saw a lot of eye-rolling at the early fantasy stages of their project as well!
dalepo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-08-2020, 11:03   #164
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Freedom 28 Cat Ketch
Posts: 117
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalepo View Post
Interesting and potentially relevant story here about a small start-up based on the invention of a commercial-grade solar-powered coffee roaster. Probably a bit tricky to adapt for ship-board use, but could make for a compelling partnership with respect to the emerging value proposition here. How many companies can offer coffee beans shipped by wind power and roasted by the sun? I expect these guys saw a lot of eye-rolling at the early fantasy stages of their project as well!
I can see bags stamped with the lat/Lon next to the roasted-on date. I think it would find a cool niche as a gift coffee, commanding a premium. I think a 12oz bag could bring $40-45 shipped in a fantastic box with a booklet telling the story. Hmmmmm......corporate gifts.......
Jdeuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2020, 05:23   #165
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 872
Re: Tallships. Which one?

Here you go OP. Perfect example for you. I’d suggest calling the owner and flying down to Costa Rica and seeing how you can get involved. Learn for a year then strike out on your own.

https://trends.nauticexpo.com/projec...recommendation
mako is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Only allowed one cook book, which one would it be? rsn48 Liveaboard's Forum 45 24-08-2019 13:12
Feathering Propeller, which one is this one? thaisail Propellers & Drive Systems 4 22-12-2017 18:21
SSB radios - which one to get as a cheap starter one? alctel Marine Electronics 56 20-11-2015 17:38
A tablet to replace it ALL: how, which one, which apps? decca Navigation 187 08-05-2013 22:19
Hand GPS – Which one ist the right one? Caroline Marine Electronics 10 28-04-2005 00:09

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.