Lack of choice in small keelboats.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider421

As long as there are trees, there will always be wooden boats.
I have never seen a plastic tree

Poor comparison.
I like beef but I’ve never seen a beef on the hoof.
In reality you could make polyester out of thin air. There might be some other elements needed for intermediate steps but the elements for the polyester itself are in the air and the technology to do so exists and is reasonably mature. It’s just not economically necessary right now.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider421

As long as there are trees, there will always be wooden boats.
I have never seen a plastic tree

You’ve never been to a home improvement store around Christmas have you?

[TrentePieds]

Crow:

@#29: Quite so, but I think it's important to be able to distinguish between superficial, easily prepared damage such a "spare" holes where something was mounted back in King Arthur's time. Bulkhead damage is, of course, a kettle of fish of a different colour, but not all "old" boats have that, and the ones that have it, you just pass by. Once upon a time we Vancouverites could wander about the marina docks at will to see what was there. But no more. AFAIK Shelter Island is the only marina in the LM where you can still do that, and as I'm sure you know SI was known to many of us as "the graveyard of ships", so it would be easy to get a distorted view of the market by going there.

So back to the SQ25: Lovely to look at, all right, and VERY cool in that respect. The commentary is a quite wonderful sales pitch, and indeed the designer, in laying out his design philosophy for the boat, as he does in the early part of the clip, states explicitly the answer to your original question. IMO (FWIW) the boat's beauty is only skin deep. As a cruising boat she wouldn't cut it in the Salish Sea, tho bashing about the buoys in English Bay she would wipe out most, if not all, of the "native" small boats.

So it comes back to this: Boats are designed for certain circumstances. The Kielerförde (which is the SQ25's native water that she is designed for) is not the Salish Sea. A cruiser/racer is neither fish nor foul. A "week-ender" is not a Cruising boat. Therefore week-enders have different design criteria from cruising boats. Among the differences boats must cater to in their design are the geographic differences twixt the places where they will be used. Since you are a Vancouverite, you know what the distance is from The Port Mann Bridge to Chilliwack. You will NOT know that that is the TOTAL distance east to west (also north to south) of my native island in Denmark, which is the second largest island in the nation! Crossing from West Vancouver to Nanaimo is a distance equal to a quarter of the total distance to be sailed in a circumnavigation of that island. Little harbours are often no more than five miles apart. Obviously such things speak to the requirements for accommodations. WV to Porlier takes about 6 hours. Therefore cooking facilities and provisions stowage have to allow for real cooking. The SQ25's cooking facilities are diminutive and simply wouldn't cut it!

Now if there were half a dozen or more SQ25 in Vancouver, bashing them about EB, in the way we used to do with Cal20s half a century ago, would be a helluva lot of fun, but why incur the expense of buying and "supporting" an SQ25 when you can have just as much fun for very little money by belonging to the Jericho Sailing Centre and using their racing dinghies? Or Crescent Beach YC if they still have their Wayfarers?

Not meaning to rain on your parade, but "cool" is a matter of perception. Different strokes (and boats) for different folks. For me the SQ25 "falls between chairs", and so would all similar boats. "Cool" to me is a 30 foot spidsgatter or an Irish Hooker:-0!

All the best

TP

[nortonscove]

I think it was referenced before but the price of fuel may be the best explanation for the difference in the sailing desires of the European market. But then the population of the country's in Europe also have greatly different values and the need for a somewhat slower experiential life. Study upon study has shown this life approach to be real. Not raising the spectre of politics but sometimes it is the political and sociological that might best explain the OP's queries.

[Drinky Crow]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

The SQ25's cooking facilities are diminutive and simply wouldn't cut it!

SQ just one example others may "cut it" quite nice. Boat that size put a porta potty under the v berth where it belong makes space for adequate galley opposing a small chart table.

More...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlOjOC6_uxQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CTlsQCEN2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLXx52O7T4

[Cpt Pat]

I learned to sail in Sweden. Sailing is a deep part of their culture. Like driving cars is here. The marinas (as others have mentioned above) were designed for sailboats. The rivers and even streams in Stockholm are lined with beautiful wooden boats. There are endless streams and islands around Stockholm - it could fill a lifetime visiting them all. Take a look: https://goo.gl/maps/CWpnrnFoKVp9yE7A8

When the wind died, they'd break out the oars to paddle home Viking style. For short distances, they'd just scull the rudder (difficult to do with a wheel - you need a tiller for that). Only rubes and wimps used or even had engines. Here in the States, far too many "sailboats" are actually wind-assisted motor boats.

Our sailing culture is dying from engine-addiction.

All the techniques I learned were adapted to engineless sailing. When I returned to the States, I was appalled to see how sailors would describe taking in their mainsail: "First you start the engine. Then you point the bow straight into the wind and while someone delicately helms the boat so it balances the heading on a knife edge, you drop the wildly luffing sail onto the crazily bouncing boom. Or, you spend thousands of dollars more for in-boom furling."

I'd ask: "But what if you don't have an engine or it doesn't start? How do you deal with swells yawing the bow off its critical heading? Why would your purposely get near a boom where a few degrees of heading error threatens to toss crew overboard? And how do you helm the boat and simultaneously take in sail when you're single handed?" "Have you tried heaving to instead to take in sail?" They'd say their fin-keeled boat couldn't heave to, and I'd take up that challenge and show them how. I've never encountered a fin-keeled boat that wouldn't heave to. Many perform constant shallow "S" turns and the bow falls off once the main starts to come down - but they do heave to.

Here's the technique I learned. Steering is provided by a piece of shock cord.

(Sorry for the duplicate video post -- there's a bug in this web server that sometimes duplicates youtube posts.)

[TrentePieds]

Good job, Cpt Pat.

Shouldn't be at all surprised if that's an Ariel 26. Cool little boats they are :-) You would know the International Folkboat, which has handling characteristics much like the Ariel, and accommodations rather like the Ariel though a tad smaller.

A boat you may not know is the "Juniorbåd", sort of a 3/4 scale IF, but with an open cuddy rather than a cabin. No bunks, no cooker, no pooper. Same basic lines. Clinker planked from the best Scowegian larch. Did a lot of learning on those, short tacking out a long ship canal from the inland harbour of Odense (Denmark) out to "Gabet" where the canal enters the Kattegat. The JB kept you on your toes because in those days we had no engines, no PFDs, no harnesses, no jack lines. Had they been known, we would have spurned them anyway with some blunt comment about their being for wimps and sissies! Strictly a matter of cultural conditioning :-). And because the JB was a ballasted full-keeler, if you managed to let yourself get pooped, you simply sank.

Don't recall ever loosing anybody :-).

TP

[Ghostrider421]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Poor comparison.
I like beef but I’ve never seen a beef on the hoof.
In reality you could make polyester out of thin air. There might be some other elements needed for intermediate steps but the elements for the polyester itself are in the air and the technology to do so exists and is reasonably mature. It’s just not economically necessary right now.

Really you've never seen beeves? Must live in a city. We have several dozen on the farm, along with sheep and ponies.


Since plastic is so cheap to mfgr and use, why does it make the vessel cost so much? The engineering was done on it decades ago. Nidacore sheets are very inexpensive and the technology is at least ten years old.
Marketing.....

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You’ve never been to a home improvement store around Christmas have you?

We don't have any here. But we do have plenty of trees and the Northern Lights to illuminate the sky.

[Roger L]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Poor comparison.
I like beef but I’ve never seen a beef on the hoof.
In reality you could make polyester out of thin air. There might be some other elements needed for intermediate steps but the elements for the polyester itself are in the air and the technology to do so exists and is reasonably mature. It’s just not economically necessary right now.

Trees do this too.

[JesperMilling]

What's their market got that we lack on this side of the pond?[/QUOTE]


Simple market theory says if something isn´t supplied its because it isn't demanded. The markets in Europe are moving in the same direction. Shrinking middle class. Sorry to say.

Jesper Milling

[john61ct]

I agree it's not growing, but

I define "middle class" by a lack of precarity.

The wealth/income brackets in more civilized countries between 20% and 70% have greater actual and psychological security than those between 70% and 80% in the US despite their lower absolute numbers.

That is what allows for greater discretionary spending on non-essentials, even during uncertain times.

[swordds]

A Relevant Sailboat Competition for the Common Sailor

How about a relevant sailboat design competition for the common sailor? A 21st Century Folkboat competition with points awarded for these added and updated requirements:
* boats must be designed for cradle to grave environmental sustainability, including end of life deconstruction, recycling and disposal;
* boats must be designed for single handed sailing with minimal required sail inventory suitable or adjustable for use over a wide range of wind and sea consitions;
* boats must have tabernacle masts easily lowered and raised singlehandedly for passage under drawbridges with evermore restrictive opening hours;
* boats must have non-fuel burning auxiliary power;
* boat designs must include fully integrated electrical charging systems;
* boat designs must include a fully integrated self-steering system;
* boat designs should incorporate live aboard functional ingenuity (including and actually usable shower) similar to modern day tiny homes and off-the-grid RV’s.

A 21st Century folkboat. A small, reasonably affordable live-aboard boat that can be easily sailed by a single person and that isn’t destined to become a future obsolete and abandoned hulk. There are so many opportunities for innovations and improvements if the only focus isn’t placed on speed.

[bimini blue]

The cost to size ratio is mucked up. For example I raced snipes in the 90’s a new boat well equipped was about 3500 now they are 7000
So for cruising why would you through 50,000 plus at a 25 footer versus a used 30-40 footer with all the gear already on board

[369thegoose]

USA one big country and Europe full of little countries that do their own thing so you get in Darwinian terms more species diversification

[kantafig]

Originally Posted by Drinky Crow

Why do Europeans make all the cool boats?

Same goes to cars