Lack of choice in small keelboats.

[Roger L]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Post #2 has heavy political connotations. #7 less so.
Both are in relation to the original question which is cruising related and would be acceptable under the rules.

I disagree. Frankly I don't see any particular political connotations in either post. Only helpful information and on topic. l think you should reconsider.
Roger L.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by tarian

Thank you for the feedback , it seems someone got the wrong idea in regards to post 7 this is history and a factual representation of what has happened , As to holiday entitlement another fact across the EU in which all member states adhere to.
their was no political referencing , if history which is factual is not allowed then this seems a little OTT by the first Mod who has taken some offence.
OFC my opinion of the history but as we are taught many histories from around Europe at School level I believe that is a true representation of the seafaring nations and answering the OPs question in another light.
As it was these nations that breed men in sheds and designers of yachts to come up with simple but effective designs for owners with moderate incomes to be able to get out into the Sea ,
This was prevalent especially in the UK were small yards churned out small numbers of boats a year at affordable prices , but the industry has changes so much now that these yards have become obsolete as the big manufacturing bases of France and Germany took over boat building and now corner the market in cheaper boats (cheaper does not imply less quality )
And as said above people are looking for bigger boats which actually in manufacturing the profit margins are bigger for the company selling them.

History is not just factual, it is also political. Look at the American Civil War which many in the southern US refer to as the War Between the States. How you frame and view history often times has political implications.

[TrentePieds]

My post (#8) was merely "a word to the wise". Please be mindful of our rules!

TP

[tarian]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It’s really not politics, nor is it the the average US person doesn’t have money. It’s also not heritage
Look at all the new SUV’s and PU trucks, and look at what the average house size is now, plus all the must have’s IPhones, data plans for everything phone, IPad, car etc. there is plenty of money.
It’s simply a matter of they don’t want to sail, for whatever reason. My belief is they consider it boring and they want right now, instant gratification, they don’t want to have to spend years learning anything.

Of course that’s not true for all, look at the “extreme” sports to see that, but I’d bet they total about 1% of the population.

I bought into that the reason that private flying was pretty much DOA now years ago believing it was due to cost, that people just couldn’t afford it.
Then I got a sailboat and started traveling around and seeing how many power boats there were, and watching them belly up to the fuel dock at a cost of thousands to fill up, and decided it wasn’t a lack of money why flying was dyeing.
I decided it was because all it took to own and operate that power boat was the ability to qualify for the loan, but flying took hours of school work, tests and practice, and who wants to do that?

Sailing is I believe in some ways a lot like flying, at least in that it takes a lot of work, requires just the right weather, and who wants to wait and do all that work? Hottest things with power boats is apparently joysticks that make docking easy, and now I think some may even autodock.

I would not disagree with you from the US standpoint as I do not live there but were I live Sailing is still pretty strong as well as French and Nordic countries , how many famous US sailors are there , how many compete in the the Vende or other great sailing challenges , (I honestly dont know tis why I ask )
But In France and the UK there are plenty of sailing heroes the French adore their sailing brothers the UK in the last 4 Olympics have won many Gold medals in sailing which brings a boost and attention to the Sport , Sea Cadets are around every seaport, in the UK , even my little nephews at 7 is now sailing on the local Lake , with no real connection to sailing before , I aslo think youtube is a great help to would be sailors as much as they can be annoying they are connecting to a new audience that will one day set sail themselves ,granted the number of long term cruisers are diminishing but I do not think this reflects the whole sailing world , sailing can be done in a bathtub if one so desires , and there is a lively second hand market in Europe for smaller boats.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Adelie

History is not just factual, it is also political. Look at the American Civil War which many in the southern US refer to as the War Between the States. How you frame and view history often times has political implications.

With all respect my post was about sailing and you are nit picking about something that is a war to people exploring the world before we knew the Americas existed this is only a fact , If I took history to be political in relation to my post I should be angry at the Scandinavian Countries for sending vikings to slaughter my descendants, but that is silly , my post was clearly about the rich heritage of the Europeans in the age of exploration, and a great sea tradition much of which is still strong today, as I do not live in the US I cannot comment on the state of sailing there
And to connect all this to political representation, is grasping at straws, as an avid history buff with generations of family working from and in the sea I follow this with great interest,Politics aside.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

My post (#8) was merely "a word to the wise". Please be mindful of our rules!

TP

Your are mistaken we do not need to be reminded like school children we are adults having a debate in which there was no political misrepresentation, you are wrong in your assumption and have read something in which there is nothing but history and culture of boat fairing nations,

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Adelie

History is not just factual, it is also political. Look at the American Civil War which many in the southern US refer to as the War Between the States. How you frame and view history often times has political implications.

History is also written by the winner, and often, very often re-written to suit the persuasive attitudes of the times.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: " as an avid history buff with generations of family working from and in the sea I follow this with great interest, Politics aside. "

Precisely, Tarian! POLITICS ASIDE this is a very interesting topic, and you will recall that my post #8 made NO objection to discussing it with references to culture and to history. For that matter, where POLICY impacts cruising and sailing as it does in many, many ways both on "the Continent", in the UK and in the "New World", there can be no objection to discussing A POLICY. Discussing A POLICY is very different from discussing POLITICS.

So to bring the discussion into the realm of culture, to what would you ascribe the different approaches to yachting embraced by say Uffa Fox on the one hand and Tord Sundén on the other? Why, in your opinion, is it that Scandinavia has never produced a yacht designer of the caliber of Arthur Robb? Why is it that here in Canada the Enterprise dinghy is a dim memory while in the UK the class is still active?

TP

[brendanwalls]

Whenever I used to take my (8ft sailing) dinghy out on the Severn I always received kind offers of help from power boaters convinced I must be in distress. Now we just cheerfully wave at each other. Very few dinghies on the Severn and I wonder if that's the case elsewhere in NA. Always lots of Optimists at sailing clubs, but after you've learned how to do it, do most people like to graduate onto big boats that inevitably get used less?

[Drinky Crow]

While I concurr with post #2 it is NOT my intention to start a "political" discussion.
Posts #3/4/5 explore how Europeans are acculturated differently than their NA counterparts. I get that. I grew up in America and I was a motorhead.
Sailing is an elective in French highschools is that right?
I am curious though how market/labour are affecting sailboat culture here.
For instance I worked for many years in a plant making high end bicycles. All was good as long as the Loonie was worth .70 cents US but not long after are dollar reached parity our fate was sealed.
Interestingly, right across the river from the plant was a complex with a couple giant sheds and ever so often the doors would open and a massive gleaming stinkpot would slide down the ways, likely destined for a American owner. Not surprisingly they folded around the same time.
Would there be the plethoria of interesting, late model small yachts over there if there wasn't a large pool of cheap skilled labour in eastern 'yurp? (Poland/Cech/Slovinia)
I suppose there's China but, shipping, eh?

#9, sure, there are a lot of small boats from the golden age of plastic fantastic but those are all getting really long in the teeth.
I been looking for almost a year now and if there are any jewels out there they're getting farther and farther between.
Most everthing is beat to crap or been used as liveaboard.

[john61ct]

Therefore many forums ban such discussions.

Hope that helps.

Or edit posts including this one if they are OTT.

Pete

[Ghostrider421]

Originally Posted by Drinky Crow

Why do Europeans make all the cool boats?

They've had more practice.
Family members going back to the 11th century were sailing dhows and the Norse were already in Newfoundland with their big ships. Very much later gulets were how the trade were made, long before Columbus, Vespucci & others were going the wrong direction.


All the designers now borrow from the old world masters.

[TrentePieds]

Crow:

@ post #25: Calling a dollar a "loonie" marks you as a Canadian. Your profile suggests that you are on the "left" coast, but your having worked in a bicycle plant implies that you spent some time in "central" Canada.

As for "small boats from the golden age of plastic fantastic " it is perfectly true that thre are a lot of them, but it is NOT, IMO, true that "Most everthing is beat to crap". One of the significant traits of "plastic fantastic" is that it is, indeed, fantastic. A comment I noted when I first came to this forum was that "wooden boats are on life support from the moment they leave the builder's yard. Fibreglass boats have to be ASSASSINATED!" I have made that observation my own, because it is, indeed, true!

But what you asked originally in post #1 was "why do Europeans make all the cool boats?", so we are drifting a bit here. If you want to explore the topic you raised - the lack of "jewels" - why not start another thread that we can devote to doing just that. I think that would be both an interesting and a useful thread.

TP

[Drinky Crow]

Never been east of Kenora.
Plant was on north arm of the Fraser.
Just because hull may be overbuilt single skin doesn't mean the non-skid hasn't worn off or the rear bulkhead ain't full of holes from installing and removing old electronics or the deck/forward bulkhead ain't rotten...PLUS........poor efficacy of those old adhesives leaky leaky leaky who wants to do a deck off resto?

[Ghostrider421]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Crow:

@ post #25: Calling a dollar a "loonie" marks you as a Canadian. Your profile suggests that you are on the "left" coast, but your having worked in a bicycle plant implies that you spent some time in "central" Canada.

As for "small boats from the golden age of plastic fantastic " it is perfectly true that thre are a lot of them, but it is NOT, IMO, true that "Most everthing is beat to crap". One of the significant traits of "plastic fantastic" is that it is, indeed, fantastic. A comment I noted when I first came to this forum was that "wooden boats are on life support from the moment they leave the builder's yard. Fibreglass boats have to be ASSASSINATED!" I have made that observation my own, because it is, indeed, true!

But what you asked originally in post #1 was "why do Europeans make all the cool boats?", so we are drifting a bit here. If you want to explore the topic you raised - the lack of "jewels" - why not start another thread that we can devote to doing just that. I think that would be both an interesting and a useful thread.

TP

As long as there are trees, there will always be wooden boats.
I have never seen a plastic tree