Hypothetically speaking - new or 10-20 year-old prod boat for blue water sailing?

[Wotname]

Let's steer a course of civility to get back on track of discussing Wild Dingo's question about comparing the $$$ of new and old production boats for blue water cruising and leave the rocks of rudeness astern.

[TheWildDingo]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Let's steer a course of civility to get back on track of discussing Wild Dingo's question about comparing the $$$ of new and old production boats for blue water cruising and leave the rocks of rudeness astern.

Thank you Wotname, but I think I have enough answers from a number of constructive posters.

There are far too many self-important trolls on this website that hijack threads needlessly. This site needs to flush out some of these people with permanent bans.

Feel free to close this thread. Thanks!

[Cloroxbottle]

Originally Posted by TheWildDingo

It's rather obvious that a new boat show have zero structural issues (outside of manufacturing defects) compared to a 20-year-old boat (which may, or may not, have structural issues and require significant overhaul/retrofit).

Should, but probably doesn't. You could look at the Lagoon bulkhead issue. Or the recent keel refit on a Youtube channel of an F-P cat where the keels were improperly built and had to be removed, cut open, and redone. Or the famous Oyster keel loss. Or the multiple issues owners of newer Neels have. Or any number of other case studies.

Give me something older (preferrably significantly) than 2005-2008 that was built in an era where quality didn't inevitably lose the argument with all other issues and pride of workmanship was still a thing.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Cloroxbottle

Should, but probably doesn't. You could look at the Lagoon bulkhead issue. Or the recent keel refit on a Youtube channel of an F-P cat where the keels were improperly built and had to be removed, cut open, and redone. Or the famous Oyster keel loss. Or the multiple issues owners of newer Neels have. Or any number of other case studies.

Give me something older (preferrably significantly) than 2005-2008 that was built in an era where quality didn't inevitably lose the argument with all other issues and pride of workmanship was still a thing.

Heavens! Bite your tongue!

[JPA Cate]

We are predisposed to look for opinions we perceive to be congruent with our own biases.

One of the difficulties facing the person who started this thread is that the problems with liner built boats, while well known, are not generally well known to people new to looking at boats, who usually look at only those which are new or pretty new.

Where such people should look, if they think they want newer boats is to the repairs threads for such boats, especially where the costs are listed. It is that if you have a liner built boat, with plexus glue, and you get water between the hull and the liner, the costs of repairs, in the case of keel damage, may well exceed the replacement cost of the boat. Given contemporary people's casual attitude to piloting and watching depths on charts, keel damage is a more often encountered problem now than it was 30-40 years ago.

With the liner built boat, you have to cut holes to access and repair the damage. And then, you have to get creative with the repair so that the now modified liner can still provide adequate structural stability, and access for future repairs. It is not cheap.

If you travel very much, you are likely to have a grounding incident, somewhere, some time, in the course of your travels. We all make mistakes. Our first grounding in our previous boat was due to getting into shallow water with bommies in an atoll in French Polynesia. The sun over our shoulder on the way deeper into the lagoon, and in our eyes on the way back. A significant learning experience, but just a normal part of accepting the lifestyle.



Ann

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

With the liner built boat, you have to cut holes to access and repair the damage. And then, you have to get creative with the repair so that the now modified liner can still provide adequate structural stability, and access for future repairs. Ann

The first "liners", (that I saw,) were simple moldings that could be glassed-in to provide an easy way to mount the engine.
Then they expanded to things like a galley drawer unit/stove well, V berths.
Eventually someone thought "Hey, let's make the whole interior of one big liner".
Now the liner, (perhaps in large sections,) could be removed from the mold and placed on a fixture.
Workers could walk all around it and in it and install all the wiring/plumbing in fast order.
Then the whole shebang could be lowered into a hull, fastened at a few places and presto, a boat.
Things don't work out so well for the poor sods who later have to work on them for mounting/wiring/plumbing the gizmos that are later added.
Repair? yeah, it's as Ann stated above.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

The first "liners", (that I saw,) were simple moldings that could be glassed-in to provide an easy way to mount the engine.
Then they expanded to things like a galley drawer unit/stove well, V berths.
Eventually someone thought "Hey, let's make the whole interior of one big liner".
Now the liner, (perhaps in large sections,) could be removed from the mold and placed on a fixture.
Workers could walk all around it and in it and install all the wiring/plumbing in fast order.
Then the whole shebang could be lowered into a hull, fastened at a few places and presto, a boat.
Things don't work out so well for the poor sods who later have to work on them for mounting/wiring/plumbing the gizmos that are later added.
Repair? yeah, it's as Ann stated above.

... and sometimes the liners don't even stick to the hull
Sailboat Liner Bonding Failure

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

... and sometimes the liners don't even stick to the hull
Sailboat Liner Bonding Failure

Can I ask which manufacturer that was?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Can I ask which manufacturer that was?

Sorry, I don't like going to court

[sailorboy1]

Talk about basis in responses

I have a 22 year old "liner" boat. Has never had a single issue with the hull, deck, rudder, liner.

Coming out with a few examples out of 1,000a is a just a few no matter how many times people talk about them.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Talk about basis in responses

I have a 22 year old "liner" boat. Has never had a single issue with the hull, deck, rudder, liner.

Coming out with a few examples out of 1,000a is a just a few no matter how many times people talk about them.

I posted an example of the most egregious one I've seen but I have dozens of examples of problems with that type, including one where a water heater on a new 43' footer had to be cut in half to be removed then had to be re-plumb'd to install the new heater in a different location. I could go on all day with examples. I'm glad you got a good one.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I posted an example of the most egregious one I've seen but I have dozens of examples of problems with that type, including one where a water heater on a new 43' footer had to be cut in half to be removed then had to be re-plumb'd to install the new heater in a different location. I could go on all day with examples. I'm gladd you got a good one.

are you saying non "production" boats don't have the same problems? Because I sure have read LOTS of them

Isn't like saying every model car that Ford ever made is bad because the Pinto was

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

are you saying non "production" boats don't have the same problems? Because I sure have read LOTS of them

I did not say that.

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Isn't like saying every model car that Ford ever made is bad because the Pinto was

I did not imply that either.

[sailorboy1]

never mind, I have read this same thread many times over the last 15 years

You know the difference between buying a $200k boat instead of a $400k boat to cruise is??

4-5 years of extra cruising instead of working!

[JPA Cate]

Sometimes when people buy boats, they want to add "things". I'm thinking dodgers, biminis, and sometimes even cleats.

When you as a builder, go to thinner fiberglass outers, relying on the inner liner for structural stability, you may end up with the hull so flexible it flexes the outer off the inner, when it is only glued together. Such thin ones also present difficulties for satisfactory mounting of objects, especially objects one may fall against or otherwise react poorly to shock loads.

It is good that SB1 has had no such problems with his boat. However, here is a link to the repair of a keel on a boat built this way. The repair was done by <minaret>, a brilliant boat repairer who used to post on CF. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ir-164093.html

If you read that thread, you will come to appreciate the difficulties of such repairs. How much weight you choose to put on it when looking at boats, of course depends on what's available in your price range, and how much those kinds of things matter to you.

Ann