Hypothetically speaking - new or 10-20 year-old prod boat for blue water sailing?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by TheWildDingo

How do the numbers ($$$) work out hypothetically for a production boat expected to sail blue water (think Atlantic and/or Pacific crossings), when considering,

Either:

New 40’ (ish) stock production boat (US$400-500k) (Bene, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse, etc)

Not impressed with engineering of any of these boats but avoid any of them that you can flex the hull by hand while they sit in the cradle i.e. Hanse they are flimsy.

[sailorboy1]

I am on a 22 year production boat. I could replace all the electronics, hull valves, rigging and it still would be way less than $200k

I don't even understand why this thread exists. If one is thinking $400k+ (because a $400k new boat still needs a lot of fit out) or a $200k fully fit out used boat it probably means they have enough money and want the new boat.

[TheWildDingo]

Originally Posted by Don C L

It sounds like you have ruled out older boats but what you have condescendingly called over-engineered in most cases is actually what is more accurately called well-built. And if it was well-built 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, it still is. A Swan is a boat I thought of too. I can’t think of many modern boats built to those standards today.

Rubbish. Planes, boats, cars, even software is built to requirements/design specifications. Over-engineering, or "well-built" as you put it, has an impact too - namely on cost.

Does that mean a Hallberg Rassy for $1M relative to a Bene ($500k) ceteris paribus age, size, etc) is "over-engineered"? No, it means different requirements/design specifications.

Both will take you across oceans, as demonstrated by the many Youtube sailors we see today.

Even so, even older boats will have a structural finite life. That isn't "condescending", it's simple fact.

Either way, with all due respect, I'm not interested in the old 'bluewater vs production' arguments - those have been hashed out ad nauseam on this forum.

This post/thread concerns taking a baseline production boat and gearing her up for bluewater sailing, whether it be a new prod boat, or a 20-year-old prod boat.

[TheWildDingo]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not impressed with engineering of any of these boats but avoid any of them that you can flex the hull by hand while they sit in the cradle i.e. Hanse they are flimsy.

I've heard a few horror stories regarding the quality of Hanses, as in, not particularly good.

[TheWildDingo]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I am on a 22 year production boat. I could replace all the electronics, hull valves, rigging and it still would be way less than $200k

And that is good to know.

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I don't even understand why this thread exists. If one is thinking $400k+ (because a $400k new boat still needs a lot of fit out) or a $200k fully fit out used boat it probably means they have enough money and want the new boat.

Again, to discuss the comparison of new prod boats with a 20-year-old prod boat for bluewater sailing.

It's rather obvious that a new boat show have zero structural issues (outside of manufacturing defects) compared to a 20-year-old boat (which may, or may not, have structural issues and require significant overhaul/retrofit).

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by TheWildDingo

Again, to discuss the comparison of new prod boats with a 20-year-old prod boat for bluewater sailing.

I have been here a while and there are LOTS of these threads. In the amount of time you have spent monitoring this one you could have read 20 threads. After the first couple you would probably stop as they are all the same.

[Bowdrie]

OP, you're unnecessarily limiting yourself with an age requirement.
"It's not the age, it's the milage".
Start searching listings in the NE.
Many are the boats that are 30>40 years old that spend 7>9 months a year in undercover storage, being only used for summertime sailing in good weather, and little or never having been exposed to hot salt water and high UV.
Doting owners who have spared no expense in maintenance and upgrades on their "precious child".
Lots of brands/models, Hinckley comes to mind as many of them receive their yearly maintenance from the company/people that built them.
Or, I guess you can get some much newer Benny/Jenny that's all clapped-out from a few years of charter service in an environment that has no kindness towards a boat.

[Kettlewell]

Actually, the place to start is with your requirements for a boat. Maybe a new boat will be the only way to satisfy them, but the opposite could be true too. In any case, a used boat will almost always be cheaper in the long run, and usually by a substantial margin. But, if you can't find the used boat you want then price is irrelevant.

[TheWildDingo]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

OP, you're unnecessarily limiting yourself with an age requirement.
"It's not the age, it's the milage".
Start searching listings in the NE.
Many are the boats that are 30>40 years old that spend 7>9 months a year in undercover storage, being only used for summertime sailing in good weather, and little or never having been exposed to hot salt water and high UV.
Doting owners who have spared no expense in maintenance and upgrades on their "precious child".
Lots of brands/models, Hinckley comes to mind as many of them receive their yearly maintenance from the company/people that built them.
Or, I guess you can get some much newer Benny/Jenny that's all clapped-out from a few years of charter service in an environment that has no kindness towards a boat.

Oh sure, totally get your point.

However, it stands to reason that without a mileage (or hour) meter, age is a reasonable proxy for condition. And on paper (or web listings), that, and a few typical blurry broker listing pictures are all that is available, outside a thorough inspection.

I would definitely stay away from the charter boats (typically anything listed in the Bahamas, etc).

Finding a gem amongst a mountain of high mileage boats is no easy feat, but I do take your point and is worth considering. Cheers.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by TheWildDingo

Either way, with all due respect, I'm not interested in the old 'bluewater vs production' arguments - those have been hashed out ad nauseam on this forum.

This post/thread concerns taking a baseline production boat and gearing her up for bluewater sailing, whether it be a new prod boat, or a 20-year-old prod boat.

So when you say "production boat" do you mean something less than 20 years old and "bluewater" is older? The vast majority of boats out there are "production" boats. The old gems were production boats.

You are right that people do sail across oceans in boats that some here would not call "bluewater." People have sailed across oceans in bathtubs too. You came here looking to answer which is cheaper, outfitting an older "production" boat vs. a new production boat. The answer is the older one.

Just be aware that the bias you object to is not solely born of boomer nostalgia for over-engineered boats. There is a good deal of experience available here as well being called on.

[wholybee]

To answer the original question as straightforward as possible.

Assuming the used boat is in average condition for its age and will require the appropriate work for a boat of its age. The new boat will be the most expensive option, and the older the boat, the cheaper it will be to repair and outfit it for bluewater use.

This discounts edge cases, boats that are so far gone they will cost more to repair than a new boat, or boats that are being sold for far less than their fair value.

Always get a survey when looking at used boats. Then you don't need to worry about mileage/hours/age or whatever. You will know the condition.

[TheWildDingo]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Just be aware that the bias you object to is not solely born of boomer nostalgia for over-engineered boats. There is a good deal of experience available here as well being called on.

Oh please.

It always amazes me that no matter what on this forum, if your thread starts discussing specifics regarding modern boats, the curmudgeons come out in force and critique the hell out of anyone else’s opinion. “You need to buy a 50-year-old boat – they built ‘em solid back in my day!”

I really don’t care if you have 10,000 posts. Are you providing me with some data-based evidence to back up your claims? Some evidence that is not anecdotal (“Look – that Bene lost its keel, ergo all modern production boats are shite”)? Otherwise, your opinion carries no more weight than Joe Schmo down at the local.

Here’s a tip: if people aren’t interested in providing positive discussion, keep scrolling and take the overdone, outworn comments elsewhere.

[thomm225]

Just for the sake of argument, this guy sailed across 3 oceans and most of the way around the world on a used boat that he paid $1,000 for.

And in case you didn't know, the boat, a Bristol 27, is on most Offshore/Blue Water boat lists.

https://mahina.com/wp-content/upload...e-Cruising.pdf

Just saying......

Btw, I paid $2,000 for my Bristol 27 and plan to sail to the Bahamas as a start then go from there.

I've had it 12 years now and have put another $12,000 into it.

https://towndock.net/shippingnews/se...-and-alexandra

https://svcrystalblues.blogspot.com/...ne-around.html

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by TheWildDingo

Here’s a tip: if people aren’t interested in providing positive discussion, keep scrolling and take the overdone, outworn comments elsewhere.

take it you are finished with this thread then

[TheWildDingo]

Originally Posted by wholybee

To answer the original question as straightforward as possible.

Assuming the used boat is in average condition for its age and will require the appropriate work for a boat of its age. The new boat will be the most expensive option, and the older the boat, the cheaper it will be to repair and outfit it for bluewater use.

This discounts edge cases, boats that are so far gone they will cost more to repair than a new boat, or boats that are being sold for far less than their fair value.

Always get a survey when looking at used boats. Then you don't need to worry about mileage/hours/age or whatever. You will know the condition.

Thank you for your answer. Pretty much what I was looking for.