Hypothetically speaking - new or 10-20 year-old prod boat for blue water sailing?

[TheWildDingo]

How do the numbers ($$$) work out hypothetically for a production boat expected to sail blue water (think Atlantic and/or Pacific crossings), when considering,

Either:

New 40’ (ish) stock production boat (US$400-500k) (Bene, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse, etc)


Or


10-20 year-old (hull/deck structurally sound) 40’ (ish) production boat (US$200-$400k), with new (professionally installed) …

• Rigging
• Sails
• Electronics package (VHF, chart plotters, AIS, instruments, etc)
• Autopilot
• Dodger/Bimini
• Electric winches
• Electric heads
• Solar or Wind or hydrogenerator
• LiFePo Batteries
• Generator/Diesel engine service
• Contingency fund (US$50k)

What would one expect to pay for the above overhaul of a 40' (ish) boat (over and above the expense of the boat)?

Where is that $$$ break-even point of new vs used?

[wholybee]

You have to look on a case by case basis. But probably, the break-even point would be that any boat older than about 1 year would be cheaper than a new boat. New boats need upgrades before significant offshore voyages, and need maintenance too. A boat even a year old probably has had all the warranty work remedied, and if intended for offshore had some of those upgrades done.

For a boat 10-20 years old you might need between $0k-$100k to get it ready. Especially your given price range of $200k-$400K. If you spend $400k on a 40ish foot boat that is 10 years old, I would hope it doesn't need a darn thing. $200k will buy are pretty nice 40 ft. boat that is ready to sail.

[Kettlewell]

IMHO unless the old boat is a wreck it will always be substantially cheaper than buying new, and even then you end up paying for repairs and replacements. It takes at least two years of use to get any boat set up properly for bluewater voyaging and you will find stuff on both old and new boats that doesn't work right, or you need to add, or you need to replace. Very few production boats come from the factory set up as bluewater cruisers, and if you pay someone to set them up the cost will not be less than paying someone to fix up the old boat. On the old boat you get to choose exactly what gear you want, while on the production boat you get what they install. For example, I went to the Newport show in the fall and many of the production boats come with a Delta-type plow anchor that looks modest in size. Expect to upgrade your anchoring gear on any new boat.

[Don C L]

A 10-20 year old 40ish boat for 200-400k won't need an overhaul, or at least it shouldn't!
I've seen some beautiful older 40' boats in great shape ready to go for less than $200k.

[Bowdrie]

[QUOTE

New 40’ (ish) stock production boat (US$400-500k) (Bene, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse, etc)

[/QUOTE]

It's not a this-or-that, as has been posted each prospective boat needs to seen as an individual case.
Many older boats will not require much of anything on your list.
The ones to seek out are the ones that owners spent a lot of money/time getting them ready for "The big cruise" and then something came out of nowhere and now they want/need to sell.
Just "hypothetically" speaking of course, is there any particular reason for the stock production boats listed?
Perhaps it's just me, but it seems as though a preponderance of the stories of broken keel joints, broken liners, weak bulkheads, steering gear problems, weak "windows", and a few pages of other stuff, (including abandonment/rescue at sea,) involve 2>3 of the brands you've listed.
The term "Bluewater" is perhaps used more loosely today than it was in the not-too-distant past.

[Ixium]

Just bought my 40’ pilot house boat this year for 40k… plumbing, electrical(like 3k Victron multiplus, 4x firefly batts, 450w solar), some electronic (new ap, new triton2 displays airmar 200wx), new plumbing all around including new fridge/freezer and condenser, new propane lines and safety things for it… etc etc new as in from 2019 and onward. Even a canvas winter cover and frame and stands.

Even if someone forced me and said “spend 100k more” i don’t really know what I’d do. I’m looking at maybe dropping 10k for my extreme wish list like making a hard dodger/bimini/solar arch, upgrading the beds

200-400k would be at least 3-4 years of around the world travelling and living in marinas the whole time. A ton of full time cruisers are in the 2-4K per month range sooo 8 years of cruising kitty…

[Kettlewell]

It is a misconception that purchasing a new boat means everything will work perfectly and/or be covered under warranty. I've run into numerous people who had to spend lots of time and money getting stuff working or fixed on brand new boats. Even if the dealer will repair something under warranty it doesn't mean it will be done quickly. In some cases, voyaging plans had to be delayed a year or more until they sorted things out. Customer service and sales follow up is not the strong suit of the marine industry.

[TheWildDingo]

Many older boats will not require much of anything on your list.

How old? I'd pass on the 30, 40-year-olds - too much time and effort requiring a top-to-bottom overhaul. I'm a little pass the tired "old bluewater is better" argument.


The ones to seek out are the ones that owners spent a lot of money/time getting them ready for "The big cruise" and then something came out of nowhere and now they want/need to sell.

That is a good suggestion and decent strategy.


Just "hypothetically" speaking of course, is there any particular reason for the stock production boats listed?

Speed, improved designs/materials, modern structural adhesives, faux-teak bonded rather than mechanically fastened, improved workmanship, latest tech, improved mechanical/electrical systems, increased usable space below (for given length), longer waterline length for a given length overall.

Throw others into the mix - Catalina, Elan, Dufour, etc. I don't see problems with these boats bluewatering, apart from say running in big swells in the Atlantic with a squirrelly wide beam aft.


Perhaps it's just me, but it seems as though a preponderance of the stories of broken keel joints, broken liners, weak bulkheads, steering gear problems, weak "windows", and a few pages of other stuff, (including abandonment/rescue at sea,) involve 2>3 of the brands you've listed.

Plenty of production boats crossing oceans, all likely with upgrades though (reinforced standing rigging, etc).

All of these modern production boats have ocean-going certifications. Manufacturing defects aside, most incidents seem to be related to use (e.g. Cheeki Rafiti and her keel sheering off, likely after a number of unrepaired groundings).

If I could put out the $$$ for a Hallberg Rassy or a Kracken or any of the other new-ish bluewater boat, I would in a heartbeat.

Hence - upgrade a production boat for bluewater?

[dan104]

I went the old boat path, 1989 Gozzard 36 (not 40' but lots of room and 42' long). I found it in the USVI's where it had been a personal boat for a couple. Almost everything was upgraded, rigging, electronics,new beta motor, solar, water maker, dressed very well. It came with spares for everything, good dingy and davits, fresh outboard, new anchor, 300' of 2 year old chain and new windless etc all for 94k.


I added new autopilot electronics $1500, checked and tuned rigging $500, extra freezer, new wind sensor, rewire the SSB, new VHF (only because I wanted a hard mic at helm) $400, few new lines as cya. Sailed her around the windward and leeward islands an lived aboard for 5 months.



Then sailed her from USVI's to Annapolis 1800nm with a total 4 person crew, though slow tropics and storm with 10-12' waves and 30knts and never felt at risk as boat was built strong! Far stronger than any production boat I have seen, and in the islands you see production boats waiting for parts or rework all over the place.


So my thought are a good old boat well taken care of is a better buy than a 2 year old one. Plus they come with all the work done, cabinets filled with all the stuff you might need, the only creature comfort things I needed to buy was new sheets and towels, boat came with pots, plates, well stocked larder, sewing gear, diving gear, tools, electrical tools etc, way to many screws and bolts etc..


For my trip down I replaced the sails (3) with cut to fit from quantum and spent 10k.

[Island Time O25]

Well I don't have enough experience to give advice here but certainly will say what I would do if I had the budget of say between $200K and $400K.

I would go for a well kept Swan 46/47 or similar quality and size, give or take on the size but not on quality (i.e. 80s-90s Amels 42 to 47 for example). Cursory search on YW shows 8 Swans for sale from 1983 to 1988 for $180K to $250K, most between 195K and 215K and a bunch of 80s-90s Amels between $120K and $155K.

Most likely Swans, or some such, are not owned by sailors on a tight budgets or dreamers who don't know what they're doing so chances are the systems and what not were upgraded along the way. I would budget for some systems upgrades, if needed, to my personal preferences - solar, water maker, etc., and would still have a good chunk of $$ leftover from the $400K limit. So I would end up with a solid blue water cruiser/circumnavigator for well under $300K, including whatever personal upgrades I wished to make.

Can't match it, not even close, in today's market with any of the production "dock queens" masquerading as "bluewater boats" for under $500-$700K new. I would have to spend $1mil and more to get similar quality and size to Swan 46/47 in a new boat, i.e. 3X more $$.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I would go for a well kept Swan 46/47 or similar quality and size, give or take on the size but not on quality

Most likely Swans, or some such, are not owned by sailors on a tight budgets or dreamers who don't know what they're doing so chances are the systems and what not were upgraded along the way.

Can't match it, not even close, in today's market with any of the production "dock queens" masquerading as "bluewater boats" for under $500-$700K new. I would have to spend $1mil and more to get similar quality and size to Swan 46/47 in a new boat, i.e. 3X more $$.

^
Haha, I came so close to posting something quite similar to what you wrote.
When you go aboard Swans of that vintage, (and earlier,) you get the feeling of being on a real solid boat that can "take it".
They, and the Amel's you mentioned are not "flimsy" in any way.
Had I presented my own choice I would probably get flamed.
That's Ok, an S&S Swan 48.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

^
Haha, I came so close to posting something quite similar to what you wrote.
When you go aboard Swans of that vintage, (and earlier,) you get the feeling of being on a real solid boat that can "take it".
They, and the Amel's you mentioned are not "flimsy" in any way.
Had I presented my own choice I would probably get flamed.
That's Ok, an S&S Swan 48.

On top of hearing and reading about the Swans about 10-12 years ago there was one 47ft up for an auction in SE MA. Dreaming with a buddy (who did 2 circumnavigations before he was 50) of it going for low $ I was entrusted with a pre-auction look see.

Of course mine was never a survey quality inspection but I did go into nooks an crannies as much as was possible. I had plenty of time since I was there at 8AM and the auction was at 11AM or 12Noon as I recall. What I was impressed with the most - the finish of fiberglass in places one rarely goes into, way behind any usable space, etc. It was the same quality finish as any fiberglass on deck or in the cockpit.

Needless to say the boat went for just under $200K, about twice our hoped for price. But on the bright side the purchaser turned out to be a friend of the financially overextended owner and as this fact became known there was visible pressure on the other bidders to stop bidding. When the friend got the highest bid (way below boat's apparent value, considering it's condition) everyone applauded after the top bidder announced he's leasing the boat back to his friend.

I have a boat builder friend, originally from one of the Baltic countries, and that's his favorite indication of the quality build - to run the palm of his hand under the locker cover or in the far reaches of the bilge or in some distant corner of the lazarette. According to him it is a rare boat these days which will pass that test everywhere he touches. It's just not done anymore in production boats.

As an aside - about that time we were at a boat show and were up on deck of an IP 38. This buddy was harping about a $450K boat not having an electric windlass. Then he ran the palm of his hand over the bottom of the lazarette cover and after noticing some fiberglass splinters on his hand exclaimed - "No wonder they did not install the windlass!"

[TheWildDingo]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I have a boat builder friend, originally from one of the Baltic countries, and that's his favorite indication of the quality build - to run the palm of his hand under the locker cover or in the far reaches of the bilge or in some distant corner of the lazarette. According to him it is a rare boat these days which will pass that test everywhere he touches. It's just not done anymore in production boats.

Do any modern day boats pass this test today? Swan, Hallberg Rassy, Kracken, others?

I'm of the view that some of these older blue-water boats were considered "quality" due to either their over-engineering, or gratuitous
factor-of-safety manufacturing, as opposed to specific modern day design requirements.

All of these modern production boats are certified for ocean voyages.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by TheWildDingo

I'm of the view that some of these older blue-water boats were considered "quality" due to either their over-engineering, or gratuitous
factor-of-safety manufacturing, as opposed to specific modern day design requirements.

I know, it seems like "over-engineering" resulted in boats that might hit a reef/rock without busting the keel loose or popping some "grid" or bulkhead, or having the engine still stay on its mounts if a line wrapped around the shaft, (I've seen such issues).
You could spend several days on the same tack in boisterous weather and all the doors/drawers still opened and closed without issue and know that an errant wave won't bust out your "panoramic windows", (what a concept).
The truth is that "over-engineering" on a yacht at sea brings peace-of-mind for those onboard, (and better sleep,) very important features that no amount of "certification" can provide.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by TheWildDingo

Do any modern day boats pass this test today? Swan, Hallberg Rassy, Kracken, others?

I'm of the view that some of these older blue-water boats were considered "quality" due to either their over-engineering, or gratuitous
factor-of-safety manufacturing, as opposed to specific modern day design requirements.

All of these modern production boats are certified for ocean voyages.

It sounds like you have ruled out older boats but what you have condescendingly called over-engineered in most cases is actually what is more accurately called well-built. And if it was well-built 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, it still is. A Swan is a boat I thought of too. I can’t think of many modern boats built to those standards today.