Fin keel or Full keel...

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I too suspect that most folks here call anything with the rudder attached to the aft end of the keel a "full keel" design. And the degree of cutaway on the fore part of the hull spans the spectrum of almost none (like the Rafiki) to ones where the vestigial "full" keel looks like a fin with the rudder stuck on the back.

Agreed. One of the benefits of cruising where I do is that we get to see all the keels quite often since everyone hauls out every season. I see very few actual full-keel boats. Having one, I'm naturally drawn to any boat that hints at that design, so I'm pretty sure I see them all. I can probably count, on two hands, the number of full keel boats I've seen over nearly 20 years annual haul outs.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

As to the "why?"... I dunno, Mike, but from my experience and reading, the fetish for "full" keels doesn't exist in other countries so much, and not with all Yanks either. Perhaps it is associated with eating corn flakes for brekkie instead of Vegemite on toast... who knows?

Do you really see an affinity for old-designs in North American cruisers? Like I say, I just don't see it in the yards I've lived in. My sampling is small though. But the vast majority of boaters clearly choose some version of fin to modified-fin design.

As I've said, my personal preference is for a significant cutaway modified fin, with skeg-hung rudder. Think Valiant (or like my previous boat, a Grampian 34). I chose my current boat despite her full keel.

[Jim Cate]

Do you really see an affinity for old-designs in North American cruisers? Like I say, I just don't see it in the yards I've lived in. My sampling is small though. But the vast majority of boaters clearly choose some version of fin to modified-fin design.

No, I don't see such an affinity in reality, Mike. I was relating to the poll that Full has sponsored here and it's strong pro-"full" response. I believe it to be skewed from the overall reality of boat ownership.

Down here in Tasmania there is a very strong traditional wooden boat cohort with many new builds and restorations under way, b oth professional and amateur. This leads to a relatively large proportion of traditional hull shapes populating the yards and waters, but still there is a majority of newer glass fin keeled designs actually in use.

Looking at the production numbers of current designs, it is obvious that fin keels dominate the population of boats being bought and being used currently. To me, that casts terminal doubt on the poll's results reflecting reality!

Jim

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by coopec43

I sailed a few times (socially) on a 60ft racing yacht. The crew used to sail the yacht into the pen because it didn't have a motor!

Try doing that with the new owner on board in here..
Or any owner..

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Try doing that with the new owner on board in here..
Or any owner..

Well the owner and crew of six(?) had obviously done it many times before. They were well equipped with fenders, ropes and poles. They always took into account wind direction and river current. A couple of the guys were big - built like a brick dunny.

The marina was quite congested but they would have had a more accessible pen (but not outside) being a large yacht


Royal Perth Yacht Club

[lyl]

Just for fun. Most must've already seen this, but I've just seen it for the first time and remembered this poll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdYTGre3fAA

I think the boat has a swing keel. What went wrong here? I'd love to hear opinions on that. What kind of other keels would've been better to have in that situation for the similar size boat? Would a Dana 24 have been more forgiving, for example?

[markpierce]

Had no problems frequently entering upwind berth with a Columbia Defender/29 whether under power or sail.

[lyl]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I too suspect that most folks here call anything with the rudder attached to the aft end of the keel a "full keel" design. And the degree of cutaway on the fore part of the hull spans the spectrum of almost none (like the Rafiki) to ones where the vestigial "full" keel looks like a fin with the rudder stuck on the back.

As to the "why?"... I dunno, Mike, but from my experience and reading, the fetish for "full" keels doesn't exist in other countries so much, and not with all Yanks either. Perhaps it is associated with eating corn flakes for brekkie instead of Vegemite on toast... who knows?

Jim

Yes, I, for example, use the word 'full' as a general term for all those 'full keels,' so when I see a modified full keel, I consider and call it 'in' full keel category. Otherwise, I would've had to make a long list in the poll options - and more than likely still would've forgotten quite a few important 'variants.'

Jim, I used to be a full keel admirer, and you were the one who changed my views and opened my mind to other kind of keels.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Full

Just for fun. Most must've already seen this, but I've just seen it for the first time and remembered this poll.

I think the boat has a swing keel. What went wrong here? I'd love to hear opinions on that. What kind of other keels would've been better to have in that situation for the similar size boat? Would a Dana 24 have been more forgiving, for example?

No. A deeper or longer keel would not have saved a boat there. A Dana 24 would have been tossed too. Maybe not quite as far or as quickly, but tossed. The design of the boat is fine for sailing and tacking in there, better than a Dana 24 IMO. Those guys are all incredibly lucky. To be thrown while in open water is one thing, but to be thrown against a pier by a shorebreak, whole different ball game. That is King Harbor and you have to tack up into the harbor there. You can't tack with just a jib, especially one that is fouled. They didn't notice the wave sets, or missed how big the big set was, and timed it perfectly to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hindsight is 20/20 but they should have run downwind to get some speed up and then gybed out to sea and sorted the whole mess out first before entering the channel. They gambled the jib would get them in behind the breakwater, which it probably would have if it weren't fouled.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Full

Just for fun. Most must've already seen this, but I've just seen it for the first time and remembered this poll.

I think the boat has a swing keel. What went wrong here? I'd love to hear opinions on that. What kind of other keels would've been better to have in that situation for the similar size boat? Would a Dana 24 have been more forgiving, for example?

i honestly don't think the type of keel had much to do with this. it was more a case of having no idea how to sail a boat...

cheers,

[lyl]

Originally Posted by chrisr

i honestly don't think the type of keel had much to do with this. it was more a case of having no idea how to sail a boat...

cheers,

I even think a full keel would have more difficulty avoiding that situation in the first place. Well, I don't know.

[C420sailor]

Keel design often drives what the boat looks like from the waterline on up, and vice versa. Many like the near vertical bow that is so popular in the last 20+ years, and that just doesn’t really flow into a full keel. I’m not aware of any full keels with those lines. We all know what most full keel boats look like...long LOA, good bit shorter LWL.

Not saying it’s a bad thing, but it’s rare you find a full keel boat with modern lines above the WL. Some people have a look that speaks to them.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by C420sailor

Keel design often drives what the boat looks like from the waterline on up, and vice versa. Many like the near vertical bow that is so popular in the last 20+ years, and that just doesn’t really flow into a full keel. I’m not aware of any full keels with those lines. We all know what most full keel boats look like...long LOA, good bit shorter LWL.

Not saying it’s a bad thing, but it’s rare you find a full keel boat with modern lines above the WL. Some people have a look that speaks to them.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Certainly most of the fullish keel designs have a salty looking above water look. Not sure about your near vertical bow comment. Look at a Bristol Channel Cutter. Full keel, vertical bow.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Certainly most of the fullish keel designs have a salty looking above water look. Not sure about your near vertical bow comment. Look at a Bristol Channel Cutter. Full keel, vertical bow.

This boat... again!! She comes up all the time!!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by chrisr

i honestly don't think the type of keel had much to do with this. it was more a case of having no idea how to sail a boat...

cheers,

What I saw was a boat with no drive on due to a flogging jib and no mainsail.

The helmsman had no steerage due to slow speed.

But in that much breeze I think that boat (surely a fin keel boat of some sort) could have sailed much faster, under better control, and probably to windward if the jib had been trimmed in and filled.

If they had problems they should have sorted them out before the got into the surf.

Wrong priority (getting into the marina) instead of sorting out the basic sail handling issues and lack of sailing skills caused this accident.

[sailingdutchboy]

A fin keel is very maneuverable and stable, and in my opinion better out in the open ocean. The draft in shallow waters is the only disadvantage I see. I have a center cockpit Formosa 56 cutter ketch with fin keel (now for sale), and would take it over a full keel any day (and night).