Composting head vs classic head

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Singularity

A long-winded diatribe.....

Nailed it in the first four words!

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Good point about agitation. I give mine a rotation whenever I'm in the head, even if I haven't used the feces bin. Just helps with the dissication and composting, as with normal composters.

I've thought about increasing the default fan with a slightly larger one. So far I haven't needed it, but I have no doubt a slightly larger one would make things even better. You've inspired me to look at it again.

How did you mount the larger fan? Did you use the existing fan housing, or did you make a new connection? Any pics?

Computer fans seem to be standard sized in fittings, only the blade size changed. It just screwed in the original holes best I can remember. As SMJ said you can also add a second fan in the flexible PVC exhaust tube. My concern was the failure of the hardwired setup so I simply used the cigar lighter outlet with a light so I could easily monitor if the fan was on or not.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by alctel

lol @ the guy claiming...

Comprehension problems?

I never posted that "Effluent Separating Head" owners love them.

But now that you mention it, the strength of defense for their decisions, one may start to question.

and then trying to claim that building giant sewage systems for livestock makes him an expert in composting marine heads,

Nope, didn't state that either.

I merely listed it as part of my practical experience with "Effluent Separating Systems". It is true and it is relevant.

and THEN trying to blame the airhead for virus outbreaks...

Nope, never stated that either.

I did suggest that ignoring the potential exposure of others to bacteria and viruses present in fecal matter is unconscionable in the current climate.

I believe that is true.

I did not claim these are directly related in any way.

I've had a natures head for 6 years.

OK, so that gives you some limited experience.

What application?

Why past tense?

it's a great solution for 1 or 2 people, though i feel more would overload it.

OK, so you feel it is a great solution for 1 or 2 people, others, myself included, under a variety of circumstances, may not.

I do acknowledge that they could be easily overloaded.

I am also aware of problems that can occur if one has higher and wetter than average bowel movements; yet another consideration.

It's less gross than a standard marine head/holding tank solution when they break - some of the stories are icccck

I have owned, operated, maintained, and repaired many different technologies and brands of marine toilets over the years.

If one uses and maintains a Type III MSD for marina pump-out them properly, there is very little muss or fuss.

IMHO, far less than the constant maintenance of keeping the "Effluent Separating Toilet" bowl clean and fresh smelling on an ongoing basis.

Emptying the urine is annoying, but solid disposal isn't that gross at all.

Depends.

Again, it looks and smells like soil.

When all goes well.

Bowl splatter is not cool.

Best of all, basically no maintenance

False. Forever adding fibre and agitating.

and no through-hulls.

A Type III MSD for marina pump out, need not have any thru-hulls.

It can be supplied by freshwater, and the only discharge through the deck.

If one wishes to discharge overboard, they may install a thru hull, completely eliminating the handling of urine and feces at sea.

Have fun emptying your "Effluent Separating Toilet" at sea in anything but absolute calms. Don't spill as you carry the buckets and jugs all through the boat including past the galley in most cases.

[Minggat]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Comprehension problems?

Have fun emptying your "Effluent Separating Toilet" at sea in anything but absolute calms. Don't spill as you carry the buckets and jugs all through the boat including past the galley in most cases.

What planet are you from?

When you read all the threads of people with years of using these heads, do you assume that they have all been sitting tied up in slips?

You raise such non-issues as this as deal breakers.

I have a young Chinese woman working for me on the project here in Indonesia. I was explaining to her yesterday about this forum and it’s gun/anchor/toilet wars. Good for a laugh. Cheap entertainment.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Have fun emptying your "Effluent Separating Toilet" at sea in anything but absolute calms. Don't spill as you carry the buckets and jugs all through the boat including past the galley in most cases.

this statement just proved that you have very limited knowledge of type 3 MSD CHT systems.

What would spill?

[Minggat]

Originally Posted by newhaul

this statement just proved that you have very limited knowledge of type 3 MSD CHT systems.

What would spill?

Oh! Oh! I know! I know!

Having cleaned up both wet sewage spills and dry sewage spills, the difference goes from seriously lengthy and unpleasant to less than 1 minute with a whisk broom and dustpan.

[alctel]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

OK, so that gives you some limited experience.

What application?

Why past tense?

IMHO, far less than the constant maintenance of keeping the "Effluent Separating Toilet" bowl clean and fresh smelling on an ongoing basis.

Bowl splatter is not cool.

False. Forever adding fibre and agitating.

A Type III MSD for marina pump out, need not have any thru-hulls.

It can be supplied by freshwater, and the only discharge through the deck.

If one wishes to discharge overboard, they may install a thru hull, completely eliminating the handling of urine and feces at sea.

Have fun emptying your "Effluent Separating Toilet" at sea in anything but absolute calms. Don't spill as you carry the buckets and jugs all through the boat including past the galley in most cases.

You seriously just keep inventing issues and it's obvious you have never used one of these things.

Here is how to keep the head fresh-smelling - keep the liquids and solids separate. That's it. The little 12v fan has been broken for the last 5 weeks and I only just got round to changing it out (a 5 minute job involving nothing interior to the actual head at all) because it STILL didn't smell. How is that 'constant maintenance? '

What's 'bowl splatter' and how does it only effect composters?

I don't add more material once I've changed it, although some people do. Are you seriously saying that turning the handle a couple of times is as much maintenance as keeping up a standard head? Don't you have to flush a standard head? Again, you've obviously no experience with these things

I also like how you claim that standard heads don't have to have through-hulls - wouldn't that tie you to a pump-out station?

And I literally emptied the solid bucket today - I sailed out 5 miles into the gulf of california, in a swell, heaved to and dumped it. It's really not hard at all - the jugs have a lid and the solids bucket is sturdy and easy to hold

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by alctel

And I literally emptied the solid bucket today - I sailed out 5 miles into the gulf of california, in a swell, heaved to and dumped it. It's really not hard at all - the jugs have a lid and the solids bucket is sturdy and easy to hold

This is hilarious. Some people have different definitions of work. Another example, turning the handle to mix the solids vs. pushing a button to flush. Try explaining this to a child or a land lubber.

I think the concept of separating liquid and solid waste is great but the amount of work to make it practical is substantial and appeals to a limited population set.

Can you imagine selling a new boat with a composting toilet option? Nope. It looks too similar to camping and too complicated and too ugly. It may be helpful if we give pros and cons for each solution vs. just pros for our chosen solution. Here is what my buddy (has composting) and I (wet) argue about sometime:

Composting
+ Smells of dirt
+ Does not use water
- Ick factor
- Need to empty liquids often
- Requires more effort normally
- Bulky and ugly with the handle
- Takes too much space in head
- Smells of dirt

Wet toilet
+ Can look/work like home
+ Small and compact in head
+ Unlimited capacity at sea
- Most installs smell after time
- Maintenance is icky
- it tends to fail at bad moments
- Smaller capacity when docked

Some remediation actions over beer:

+ Piss outside the toilet system, it helps both solutions but only woks well for males
+ Empty urine tank in the sink if it drains to sea.
+ PVC plumbing for wet toilet
- Endless discussion on emptying closer to shore as in Europe, vs. solids disposal in public trash bins, vs. dogs’ solid disposal everywhere.

[Mike OReilly]

We must all find our own balance when it comes to almost all boat system questions. I always stress everyone needs to make their own decision on the pros vs the cons. Like every boat system, this one comes with both. For some, the pros will outweigh the cons. For others, the opposite is true. Both are valid.

The reason I participate in these threads is to provide real world answers based on actual experience of living and cruising with a composting head. What irks people like me is when uniformed opinion is shared as fact. For some reason this topic, more than most, brings out many such people (not lumping you in this category Pizzazz).

I've always said composters are not for everyone. When considering full time cruising, they're really aimed at two, perhaps three adults. They make the most sense on mid-sized boats where space is at a premium. They work well for those who like to spend long periods off the dock, often anchored in small, protected anchorages. Or who travel largely in zero-discharge zones like the Great Lakes, or indeed anywhere within the three mile limit. And they probably appeal to those (of us) who value simplicity and frugality over complexity and luxury.

But there are vast numbers of boaters and cruisers who don't fit those categories. For them, a standard marine head is probably the better choice. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

We must all find our own balance when it comes to almost all boat system questions. I always stress everyone needs to make their own decision on the pros vs the cons. Like every boat system, this one comes with both. For some, the pros will outweigh the cons. For others, the opposite is true. Both are valid.

The reason I participate in these threads is to provide real world answers based on actual experience of living and cruising with a composting head. What irks people like me is when uniformed opinion is shared as fact. For some reason this topic, more than most, brings out many such people (not lumping you in this category Pizzazz).

I've always said composters are not for everyone. When considering full time cruising, they're really aimed at two, perhaps three adults. They make the most sense on mid-sized boats where space is at a premium. They work well for those who like to spend long periods off the dock, often anchored in small, protected anchorages. Or who travel largely in zero-discharge zones like the Great Lakes, or indeed anywhere within the three mile limit. And they probably appeal to those (of us) who value simplicity and frugality over complexity and luxury.

But there are vast numbers of boaters and cruisers who don't fit those categories. For them, a standard marine head is probably the better choice. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Really good post Mike. Its the best explanation of why I'll be installing a compost head.

As part of a much larger refit of my single head Willard 36 trawler, I am relocating my head. This means I started with an entirely blank slate. I have owned liveaboard sized boats for 30 years, and was a full time delivery skipper on the pacific coast for about 5 years. My experience with traditional marine heads has been far from flush/forget. Peggie Hall was kind enough to chat with me a couple times and had some great suggestions on how to minimize issues with a conventional head. I am fairly certain I could install a relatively trouble free system.

As part of that design effort, I realized how many valves, hoses, and through hulls I needed, especially with the option to go direct overboard discharge . Now, our cruising plans is to leave Ensenada MX later this year and slowly dawdle south, eventually ending up in our new home in Florida where we'll spend time in Bahamas and perhaps do the Loop.

We will rarely have guests aboard. Years ago, we often had a full boat of guests, usually over a dozen. That won't happen anymore - if it does, I'll have to install a traditional head system.

For me, if I'm honest, I think the US discharge rules are ridiculously strict. But my wife is a different animal and is pretty militant about topics like that.

I am tired of working on boat systems. My goal of a refit is to reduce pistons, pumps, and IP Addresses. The compost head is, for me, a move in the right direction. My closest buddy who I have taken many long trips with thinks I'm nuts. But he's much more of a "bling" guy than I am.

Frugality was not a consideration at all for me. Simplicity and reliability ranked number one. Yes, there is more contact, but I know exactly what I am signing up for. A traditional head always had unpleasant surprises for me at inopportune times. For example, last year as I was getting ready to leave San Francisco for Ensenada (500nms), my macerator pump died. Replacement was complicated by the new pump being defective - would run, but not pump. I was convinced it was an install error, not a DOA part, so I chased all sorts of possible issues which took a full day. The prospect of heading 500nms without a head was pressing, especially with a favorable wx window developing and a long list of other prep to do.

Thanks again Mike. I totally agree - not for everyone, but I do think there are very objective criteria where it is a very good choice for many.

[ramblinrod]

Well, it seems like we may be approaching more common ground.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

We must all find our own balance when it comes to almost all boat system questions. I always stress everyone needs to make their own decision on the pros vs the cons. Like every boat system, this one comes with both. For some, the pros will outweigh the cons. For others, the opposite is true. Both are valid.

Absolutely, 200% agreed.

As I always say, “Every solution to every problem man can derive, necessarily creates at least one more problem.” and “Every vessel design or modification carries a series of pros and cons.

My issue with the “Effluent Separating Toilet” threads, is that the “fans” espouse their virtues, and ignore or gloss over their drawbacks.

So I am very glad to see some posters present both pros and cons.

The reason I participate in these threads is to provide real world answers based on actual experience of living and cruising with a composting head. What irks people like me is when uniformed opinion is shared as fact. For some reason this topic, more than most, brings out many such people (not lumping you in this category Pizzazz).

You may choose to believe this, but I believe there may be some truth to Singularity’s post, and I’m sure if you did some sole searching you would admit that there is more to it than just “educating others with the benefit of your experience.”

I've always said composters are not for everyone.

But your continuous and aggressive defense of the solution for all, contradicts this statement (whether you realize it or not). [/QUOTE]

When considering full time cruising, they're really aimed at two, perhaps three adults.

Well not really. The design is not “aimed” at marine use. I believe what you are trying to claim, is that you feel the design is well suited for marine application.

This contradicts you prior statement. If you truly believed what you said, then “Some boaters may prefer this solution over alternatives, for certain applications” would be more appropriate.

They make the most sense on mid-sized boats where space is at a premium.

This is just a matter of your opinion based on your perspective and what does it really mean? If they make very little sense anywhere, but they make slightly more sense for this application, they may still make very little sense.

They work well for those who like to spend long periods off the dock, often anchored in small, protected anchorages.

So do the alternatives, from those users perspectives. When we are cruising for long periods off the dock, we enjoy not having to do anything but flush the marine head, and then when we need to pull into a service dock for fuel, provisions, meal, sight seeing, just tell the attendant, “We need a pump out” and it’s done. Or when in a harbour, when we move to another anchorage after a few weeks, just pull out beyond the 3 mile limit, and open a valve. A very civilized solution, that takes little to no effort.

Or who travel largely in zero-discharge zones like the Great Lakes, or indeed anywhere within the three mile limit.

This is where I really disagree. In the vast majority of the Great Lakes, there is a marina with pump out facilities at least every 50 miles which with just a little planning can be visited for pump out (and other services). So for the Great Lakes I believe a marine head for shore side pump out is a much better set of compromises. I estimate the number of boats in the Great Lakes with “Effluent separating toilets” is about 0.05% or less.

And they probably appeal to those (of us) who value simplicity and frugality over complexity and luxury.

Questionable. A marine head for pump out or overboard discharge is a pretty simple system, and a basic model costs less than a C$1000, around the same as a commercially available “Effluent Separating Toilet”. The only real difference in luxury I see, is handling ones own excrements, vs having someone else perform the pump out. While most marinas prohibit DIY pumpout, some allow it, and even insist on it. In the Great Lakes, common practice is to flip the dockhand C$5 for their troubles. Interestingly we have noted, that even if marina staff is a 50/50 mix male and female, the trained pumpout station dock hands are almost always male (but that is a different subject).

But there are vast numbers of boaters and cruisers who don't fit those categories. For them, a standard marine head is probably the better choice. Nothing wrong with that at all.[/QUOTE]

Again from my perspective, there are vast numbers of boaters and cruisers in all categories who feel a marine head for pumpout or overboard discharge is probably the better choice.

For a true unbiased evaluation, one has to weigh all of the pros and cons, from an unbiased pre-disposition, while taking into consideration:

1. Boat design
2. Boat use
3. Disposal options available
4. Cost (Initial and ongoing)
5. Operation and maintenance preferences.

For many, regardless of geo location or any other variable, a marine head designed for pump out and/or over board discharge is the preferred solution. For others an “Effluent Separating Toilet” May be preferred.

Neither is “wrong” or “right”.

My objection is to those in either camp who post the virtues, without the drawbacks, while attempting to convince others their decision is “the best”.

I and many others have evaluated the options and determined that an “Effluent Separating Toilet” is not the best solution for our needs, and this is quite “correct”, and no amount of alternative biased banter, will change that.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. And they probably appeal to those (of us) who value simplicity and frugality over complexity and luxury.

.

As an unbiased post this statmement reads not!

Define luxury, sure as hell do not believe many marine toilets are like a 5 star hotel bathroom and 3 years in my electric macerating toilet had given no issues simples really , maintenance will give long life and no smells to any toilet system, if you do not want to change you lines if they smell your a fool or no smell

Do not really care for composting I like my luxury

But I await the fanzone to correct me , the ones that said why oh why are we discussing this again.
To think carrying any body effluent up to deck from heads and not thinking it is a hassle well I have only an infinite time on this planet and my precious seconds wasted on this exercise confounds me , but as said that is me and my opinion and my body and my waste and I will do what I like with it within legal restrictions

[Mike OReilly]

See, some of you folks just can't help being argumentative .

You can impose your own biased views all you like, my actual words speak for themselves. I am giving my honest opinion based on ACTUAL EXPERIENCE cruising with these heads. I also have over a decade cruising with a standard marine head in the Great Lakes.

Clearly some of you have zero interest in trying to learn anything new. I'm not here for you. I'm here for folks who have honest questions, and want honest answers from someone with experience.

As I said at the beginning of this thread:

I'll summarize that those (of us) who own and use composters generally like them a lot. The vast majority of negative comments come from people who have never owned one. It's one of the topics that seems to generate a lot of uniformed, but strongly held, opinion.

If you're seriously considering going to a composter, there are a large and growing number of users here who are more than happy to help. Don't hesitate to ask.

[Montanan]

Okay, so I see the Forum is still talking crap.

Well while were on the subject of favorite crappers. Allow me to introduce you all to Who Gives A Crap.

When you purchase their toilet paper, tissue paper, and paper toweling which products are made of recycled paper, fully 50% of the profits from such revenue are contributed to providing toilets to less developed communities thereby enhancing sanitation.

I'm not completely certain but I suspect that they don't recycle "post consumer / used" toilet paper in the production of their products

https://us.whogivesacrap.org/

"Toilet paper is about more than just wiping bums. We make all of our products with environmentally friendly materials, and we donate 50% of our profits to help build toilets for those in need. To date we've donated over $2.5m Aussie dollars (that’s the equivalent of just under US$1,900,000!) to charity and saved a heck of a lot of trees, water and energy. Not bad for a toilet paper company, eh?
We love toilet paper because for us, it's our way of making a difference. We started Who Gives A Crap when we learnt that 2.3 billion people across the world don't have access to a toilet. That's roughly 40% of the global population and means that around 289,000 children under five die every year from diarrheal diseases caused by poor water and sanitation. That's almost 800 children per day, or one child every two minutes. Luckily, toilets are proven to be a great solution—they provide dignity, health and an improved quality of life. And in case that wasn’t enough, it’s been shown that a dollar invested in sanitation yields $5.50 in increased economic prosperity. Toilets are magical!

We thought that was pretty crap. So in July 2012, Simon, Jehan and Danny launched Who Gives A Crap with a crowdfunding campaign on IndieGoGo. Simon sat on a toilet in our draughty warehouse and refused to move until we had raised enough pre-orders to start production. 50 hours and one cold bottom later, we'd raised over $50,000.

We delivered our first product in March 2013 and have been thrilled to keep growing ever since. Not just because our toilet paper is gracing bathrooms across the country but also because we donate 50% of our profits to help build toilets and improve sanitation in the developing world.

we invest almost all of the other 50% into growing the company. We plan to open more distribution centres, hire more talented people, develop new products and find more innovative ways to improve our existing ones – all to make sure we’re around to see the day everyone in the world has a toilet. On top of growing our business, it’s incredibly important for us to prove our profit-for-purpose business model can work. The more people see this, the more social enterprises like ours can get off the ground and do great things!

Though we're still growing, and now make more than just toilet paper, we always want to stay true to our roots: toilet humor and making the world a better place.

You can make a difference in the loo, in lieu of purchasing, say Charmin, one can buy their butt wipes.

[Montanan]

Whether one uses a composting head or a "classic" holding tank head, just remember they both contain the same campaign promises. You just had to know that politics would be introduced into this thread.