At what point does a boat start to get too big? (family, kids, maintenance concerns)

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I think you're asking the wrong question. Come at it the other way: What is the smallest boat you need that will do what you want to do? By looking at it this way you will focus on your actual needs and wants. It forces you to understand what it is your trying to achieve.

+1

Mike - do you get the feeling we're increasingly in the minority...?

LittleWing77

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

+1

Mike - do you get the feeling we're increasingly in the minority...?

Too true.


I guess it's just like houses, or cars, or now portfolios (the new 'hot rod' status symbol). We've been trained to seek the most. We can't even ask, What is enough?

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by WrongColorPaint

Anything smaller than a 44/45-47-ish ft boat starts to get really crowded and small. (with kids/dogs)

Just commenting on this the other way. We have a 38-ish ft boat with four children, two adults, one dog, and I don't feel that it is too cramped at all.

Upgrading in size (within the same brand) would mostly mean more space but in a similar configuration -- bigger cabins, higher ceilings but still the same three cabins with double beds, etc. Functionally, it doesn't disperse the 'crowd' much better.

Moving to something where the children would have their own cabins (or at least beds), well, it's hard to find that. Or -- what I like in buildings -- that they could be on another floor far outside hearing distance, that's not easy either

But well, we have only one dog. You are saying dogs, so that's another scenario obviously.

[Group9]

At the point you quit taking it out because it's too much trouble.

[DockDoc]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Too true.


I guess it's just like houses, or cars, or now portfolios (the new 'hot rod' status symbol). We've been trained to seek the most. We can't even ask, What is enough?

I think the question we should be asking is, what's the least to achieve my goals.

If your goals are to live aboard a sailboat as comfortably as possible, with as many family friends as you can, and sail where ever you want then size really becomes an issue. What is enough is what it takes to meet your goals. Your goals are different than mine, unlikely we would be happy with the same boat.

If my goals are to have the wife sail with me, and be happy, include family and friends, have a washer-dryer, full shower, water maker, scuba compressor, etc etc then I am going make the boat fit my goals, not try to make my goals fit the boat. I'd love a smaller cheaper easier to handle boat, but I wouldn't have my family or friends aboard, and they are more important to me. I bought a boat too big for my experience, but the family loves it, and I've grown up and into it.

Cheers Mike,
I think your posts are insightful and I enjoy reading them, but I wanted to counter point this one.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by DockDoc

I think the question we should be asking is, what's the least to achieve my goals.

If your goals are to live aboard a sailboat as comfortably as possible, with as many family friends as you can, and sail where ever you want then size really becomes an issue. What is enough is what it takes to meet your goals. Your goals are different than mine, unlikely we would be happy with the same boat.

If my goals are to have the wife sail with me, and be happy, include family and friends, have a washer-dryer, full shower, water maker, scuba compressor, etc etc then I am going make the boat fit my goals, not try to make my goals fit the boat. I'd love a smaller cheaper easier to handle boat, but I wouldn't have my family or friends aboard, and they are more important to me. I bought a boat too big for my experience, but the family loves it, and I've grown up and into it.

Cheers Mike,
I think your posts are insightful and I enjoy reading them, but I wanted to counter point this one.

I agree... I think we're saying exactly the same thing, but in a slightly different way . I said: "What is the smallest boat you need that will do what you want to do?" You phrased it as "the least to achieve my goals." Same thing .

From your criteria it sounds like you need something very big, with all the amenities possible. If that's what your needs really are, then good on you . You, my friend, understand what the smallest boat you need is .

My point is that instead of just starting with the biggest whatever, or as the OP has phrased it, "when is it too big?", we should start with an understanding what we actually need. Then match that need with, in this case, a boat that fits those needs. That's what you've done.

The benefit of this approach (as I see it ) is that it forces people to think about what they really want and need; what is important, and what they are trying to achieve. Buying the biggest whatever doesn't allow for any of that. But as I say, our culture doesn't teach us to think in terms of needs. It drives us to want more, More, MORE.

[Hesti]

A boat is to big if you have trouble finding berths where you sail it, where you want to sail it.

A boat is to big if you have trouble keeping up with the maintenance and repair, both timewise and cost wise (*).

A boat is to big if you have trouble maneuvering it into berths in the harbours where you want to sail it.

A boat is to big if the crew without the skipper can not handle it and bring it back to a skipper if the skipper has fallen into the brine (ok, that may also be a training issue).

A boat is to big if the local boat yards where you sail can not get it out of the water.



(*) My very rough estimate is, that the annual budget for maintenance and repair should be around 10 % of the price of a comparable size new boat for sustainable good condition upkeep. Own hours can be calculated against this budget to a degree. For a boat with maintenance backlog, you can easily spend 30 % and more of the cost of a comparable sized new boat in the quest to bring her up to scratch again.

[WrongColorPaint]

Thank you all for the replies. We are trying to navigate through this boat search process and it is turning out to be much more complicated than either of us thought. (no fights/yelling yet though)

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

But size often gives you more room to access things, making it easier for you to diy, or reducing hours for a professional.

I'm guessing you are liking Amels and the admiral is looking at the new Hylas designs. I'm curious where you are located that getting marine stainless work is cheap...

We are slightly south of you. I have a racing background and don't really know cruising boats that much. I like Amel because of the steering wheel. I think that a wheel on autopilot in the middle of the cockpit may not always play nice with dog tails and babies/young kids. And with the percentage of time you manually steer vs. autopilot/at anchor/dock/mooring, The steering wheel location isn't that important to me. (I know sacrilege but it's the truth)

Stainless work: I'd probably do it myself. I have a pretty decent Lincoln welding machine (gtaw). I have dies to bend roll cage tubing (may need smaller dies for SS boat tubing) but I'm sure I can figure it out. I know a couple SS metal shops around but I agree with your sentiment that it is not cheap. It's a hobby for me so I'd give it a shot.

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

WCP I think it just comes down to money when you start getting bigger. Some of my wealthier clients on bigger boats just head to the nearest hotel while the maintenance gets done. Not that bigger issue and you can always hang around and supervise while the work gets done. As for one single person doing the work, you would have to be an exceptional all rounder to understand and maintain all the systems properly on a yacht.
Cheers

I'm pretty handy with most stuff and I have enough boat systems and mechanical experience to know that it's going to take TIME to learn the boat and many mistakes at first. Of all things my weakest link is probably diesel injection but I'll figure that out. If I'm not confident I'll find a junk/scrap injection pump before we leave and rebuild it at home so I can carry a list of spares and tools with me.

I'm not a checkbook owner. That's also my worry. When I owned a track car every spare minute I had was spent getting it ready for the next race. I want to actually sail somewhere and enjoy it. And I'd also like to go places where we can't just write checks to fix things.

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

Having hidden pop up entertainment systems, rather than a bulkhead mounted tv.

I'm guessing you are liking Amels and the admiral is looking at the new Hylas designs. I'm curious where you are located that getting marine stainless work is cheap...

Didn't address these earlier. Yes, she likes the Hylas and I like the ugly boat I consider to be more safe, stout, robust, intuitive (as intuitive as a Frenchman can be), etc.

Hidden pop-up garbage: All I can think about is vacuuming out the dog hair and kids dropping food down into those pop-up holes. That's an absolute disaster waiting to happen. We would ditch stuff like that before we leave the dock.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I think you're asking the wrong question. Come at it the other way: What is the smallest boat you need that will do what you want to do? By looking at it this way you will focus on your actual needs and wants. It forces you to understand what it is your trying to achieve.

I agree with you. Rather than asking "how big can I go", I look at it as: How small can I go without wanting to shoot myself when I need to access something to perform repairs or maintenance? People say that the difference between a 50 and 55 is access to mechanicals and space. Not much difference in layout. I would rather have smaller, less loads on lines/sheets/sails/boat/rigging, etc. less maintenance, less bottom paint, less awlgrip to spray, less fuel to buy, less oil to change. I also want something big enough that she can cook dinner while I mess with something that needs repair. I don't want to tear apart the entire boat to do maintenance. I'd also like something with enough space that it's easy to access things and work on them. If it's right there and it's easy to access, it won't break. If it is a royal pain to access and the maintenance or repair completely disrupts the boat --it'll break.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

There's a saying that cruising is "being a boat mechanic in paradise". It's true for smaller boats. Super true for big ones. "Hours and Effort" = every spare minute aboard.

That's what I don't want. The goal in going sailing is to spend time together and raise kids for a few years, not be a mechanic and spend more time apart than we do now.

Originally Posted by roland stockham

You don't mention the age of the kids and that could make a big difference. Older teenagers may be crew, younger teenagers may be competent to steer or take a watch when someone else is awake below but not strong enough for many jobs. Prior to teenage years kids are going to add to the workload as you will need to supervise them as well as the boat! As others have said it is complexity rather than size that is likely to make the difference but on a boats above 50ft with a single mast rig changing sails becomes a 3/4 person job just because of the weight of the sails. While you can use power winches for sail trim and hoisting their are some things that still require manual handling. I would definitely suggest you look at this aspect and maybe look at ketches or schooners with a well broken up sail plan. It is much quicker and easier to drop than reef it and if you go for all powered furlers it is likely to compromise sailing performance in light to moderate conditions. This tends to be an issue on larger boats, they do have higher hull speeds but need more wind power to drive them. You really don't want a boat that needs 25kn wind to get to cruising speed! My ideal rig for this sort of size and crew would probably be a classic schooner with 2 equal sized masts, twin furling head sails on the foremast, fisherman aft of the foremast, jib and a fully battened main on the aft mast. While this will not give high pointing ability it would be very easy to control short handed with power winches and quite reasonable without as no sail will be larger than 4-500sq ft. Off the wind she should sparkle and the fisherman is a delight for close quarters or sailing up a river. Look them up and see if you have never come across one.

We are working on kid #1 right now. I'd do several (4-5), she wants two and would do three. But who knows. When it comes down to it, maybe I'll shoot blanks and we won't be able to have kids. Yes, I am very aware of young kids. I feel like I'll be single handing, especially since we hope to have a few kids. That's one of my concerns about boat maintenance: A newborn, dogs and a pregnant wife...

One of the reasons why I like Amel is the ketch rig. Not just smaller sails, LOTS more options to balance the boat, given weather conditions and sea state. (she thinks they are ugly boats and does not like the looks/aesthetics)

Originally Posted by ncohen226

We've asked the same question and where we've landed is selecting a boat that my husband and I could comfortably handle in all kinds of conditions.
This includes equipment working and not working (like electric winches), and if one of us gets hurt / incapacitated, can the other one manage? Sailing is a commitment that does not, in many instances, afford you to access help expeditiously.

So, in my mind it comes down getting our heads around these questions:
- what kind of sailors are we?
- what kind of sailing do we want to do (safety / size / anchoring (keel depth / access to marina / service shops)?
- how flexible is the layout to accommodate changing requirements?
- what kind of redundancies are important? and
- what happens when the kids no longer come (how long do we want to own the boat for?).

Thanks for that comment. We want something we can handle together easily and that she can eventually manage solo (she is still learning). What kind of sailors are we: Probably in over our heads What do we want to do: Island hop in the Caribbean for a year or two, have a few more kids, then assuming we are both on the same page with sailing, have a conversation about when we head west.

When kids no longer come: They will be babies. You can't really plan life out that far but ideally, we want to end our trip when they are middle school-ish aged so they can play sports and have a bit of a more traditional land-based education. We aren't selling our house and plan on coming back from time to time for weddings, funerals, other events, etc.

We are discussing two types of boats, one that we buy for the trip and sell when we get back, and one that might check enough boxes that we hang onto it long enough that our grandkids might have the pleasure of dealing with when we are gone.

Originally Posted by Singularity

^^^This.
Number and type of systems present vs not. Accessible vs not.
I'd just emphasize...the older the systems on the boat, the more likely you are going to need to repeair/replace them, such that accesibility would be more of a concern. Accessibility including wiring/plumbing/through-deck connections/tanks hiding behind what starts as maybe a beautiful interior that's not been touched since leaving the factory.

One intriguing subject brought up before about families aboard: do you want your families to share more space (e.g. 2 children sharing a birth) or not. Interesting arguments both ways, but something for the ~childhood development aspect to chew on.

Others have mentioned crew, kids, chores, etc. When I was young we had a wood stove. My brother and I would often (very often, we were terrors) have to go out and split and stack wood as a punishment. I think with kids it all depends. I'm not sure I would want our kids to share a bed or single birth but I shared a room growing up with my brother and she shared a room with her sister. We both come from big families --you are family, figure it out.

Now the question that comes up when you have two boys and a girl, and why does the girl get the double birth cabin and the two boys get bunk pipe births --she's your sister and a girl, get over it.

One of the reasons why we are willing to spend a little more on a boat is accessibility. I want everything to be accessible so that it can be inspected, maintained or repaired. Easily and without destroying the boat. That is one thing I'm willing to pay for.

Originally Posted by contrail

I agree that a catamaran is worth considering, since the added space can make maintenance easier. I live on a 1999 Leopard 45, which is roughly equivalent to a 55 foot monohull and have done so for 16 years. Prior to that, I lived aboard a 33 foot mono for 19 years. I singlehanded the 33 and I singlehand the cat, and have skippered the cat in charter for most of my time with it. The 33 footer was well equipped, but nothing like the bigger cat. However, almost everything was hard to get at. On the cat, by contrast, everything is super easy to get at. It's almost like working in a workshop except for the bilge pumps (go figure). I literally never have those projects where you spend hours getting at the bolt on the back of something. I did have those days on the smaller mono. On the cat, I have two engines, a generator a watermaker, three airconditioners, three refrigerator systems, two fresh water systems, four heads and six showers, for starters. Quite a bit of stuff. But not bad for maintenance, due, I think, to the fact that the early Leopards, like mine, were specifically designed for charter with the Moorings, and the Moorings was interested in not wasting time and effort because access was difficult. Even a tank or engine or generator or mast can be removed in short order. I was amazed.

All of which goes to say that I would see if I could get on one of the boats you are considering, with your wife, and go to each system and figure out how you would need to maintain it. Only then would I decide on the boat, and what systems you want, with her input and realization of what will be involved. And, don't forget to include cats, which may be more suited to what you intend to do. Best of luck.

With COVID it's really hard to get on boats. I've been around boats all of my life so I have a general feel for the style and quirks of different brands, but I could care less --happy wife, happy life and right now we can't run around looking at boats the way someone could two years ago. If we could get on boats easily so she could get a feel for things, I wouldn't have created an account here. For us, this is going to be a sizable purchase and a huge decision. The hard part and reality is that I ***think*** I've been around boats enough to know what I want and/or what would work. That said, she wears the pants and I wish it could be a more mutual decision. I hate looking at pictures and then hearing her say "pick whatever boat because you know more than me".

Regarding cat boats I'll say this:
I don't know catamarans and I don't want to start a giant disaster of a debate. I did a delivery on a medium sized one about 15 years ago and I flipped a small one over at a tourist resort down in the Caribbean about 20 years ago. Other than that I have zero experience with cat boats. They may be better suited for what we want, easier, cheaper, overall better, etc. --but I wouldn't feel comfortable buying a cat and putting my family on it. We'll buy a monohull boat. That may sound ignorant but it is what it is. I respect that people love them. I'm just saying I don't know enough and don't feel comfortable enough to try one out for the first time when we are talking about going sailing for a few years. I didn't mean for that comment to be rude in any way. Hopefully if this works out and she loves it as much as I want her to love it --then we'll get on a few cats here and there and get some experience with them. I'm OK being ignorant and saying I won't consider a cat at this point.

Originally Posted by Emouchet

Maintenance is a big part of full time cruising. This is the reality. Watch the Youtube sailing channels. There is always something.

At every anchorage I have been for more than a day or 2, if you start talking to the neighbors, you will find there is at least a boat stucked, waiting for parts or cannot move until this or that is fixed.

Somebody even said that "Sailing around the word is actually fixing your boat in remote location". This means something.

The more systems you will have on your boat, the more time you will spend maintaining them or fixing them.

Having money will help as you can pay someone to do the job. But you will not be cruising during that time. And sometime, you may need to wait significant time (weeks...) to get it done, unless you decide you can live without this or that.

In my opinion, the YouTube channels are terrible. They are one of the reasons why my other half is worried about going sailing. The popular videos are not reality --mostly drama and edited clickbait. We want to go sailing. Probably bounce around the Caribbean until I become celibate for roughly 20-years (until we are done having kids), and then once they are old enough that initial US doctor visits and vaccinations are done, we'll head west and see what happens.

I don't mean to be negative about the YouTube channels, it's just that I know people who have circumnavigated and we have one of those YouTube couples at a marina fixing a boat pretty close to us right now. It's not reality.

I'm not worried about our checkbook. I'm worried about the amount of work it takes to make sure something on the boat doesn't fail when we are someplace where there are no people or where Amex doesn't work.

Originally Posted by DockDoc

So to summarize, if you have a lot of experience and get a nice made Amel or equivalent you can probably safely go pretty big, 50-65 feet. I sailed comfortably with 6 of us, no dogs, on an older 1970s S&S 48 swan. My buddy's 2009 Amel is a super sail, built like a tank, looks like a Bently and would accommodate your needs as well. Many features such as side boarding, not transom boarding help those who aren't as able-bodied.

If you don't have much experience you're going to be pretty unhappy with a big boat, they require a lot of attention and money. The less attention you pay to them, the more money you will.

Good luck!

The ocean gives no **#+$ about your desires and money, experience it has some modicum of respect for.
I respect that statement. Thanks.

I'm not worried about me, I'm worried about her. All I do is work right now. We want to go sailing so we can spend time together and be present while we raise our kids, especially when they are young. I can get a boat from point A to point B --I just don't want to get there and have to go back to work (boat maintenance) because that would be no different than what we have now with no boat.

Regarding sailing, I know my limitations. I want a boat that's easy for the two of us. Something that I can comfortably handle alone. Non-Negotiable: I want something that if I were to get hurt, she could make it back to a dock or harbor without my help or me on board. Nice to have or want to have: I'd like something big enough that she can bring her Kitchen Aid mixer that she loves to cook and bake with. I'd give up my coffee maker and use a French press if she could have her mixer.

The dogs should be fine. I think I have enough experience. I can sail, sew, weld, I don't have much diesel experience but I can build a gasoline race motor, we gutted our last house to the studs and I did everything: plumbing, heat, electric,drywall, carpentry, etc. I think I know boats well enough that I can hear a winch when the pauls start to stick and need repacking and I can hear/feel a sticky shive or spot a chafe on a section of line. I think I know but I don't know what I don't know.

There's a swan ketch I really like that's close to us. Probably not the right boat for us but it's really close and I love the lines (she likes it too). It's a shallow centerboard, ketch boat. Beautiful lines (in my opinion). Has coffee grinders too --I think those would be fun for kids someday. It's always been my opinion that Swans are a more "athletic" or active or manual boat. Not push-button electric winch lazy but more of a racing focus vs. Amel "everything is thought of" focus. Can you cruise on an older Swan easily? I really like that boat but I'm not sure it's the right one for us.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Originally Posted by Cliffhanger

Another important consideration is draft. As boats get bigger, the keels tend to get deeper. Depending on where you sail this may not be an issue but I sail on the Queensland coast where draft of 2m and above can be a real liability. One of the reasons why there are so many catamarans in Qld. Another consideration is the availability of marina berths. The bigger the boat, the less options there are. Again, this might not be a problem in the areas you plan to sail.

We plan on Caribbean for a bit and then head your direction. We will try to stay as shallow as we can. Don't want to close doors to great spots and also knowing me/myself --I don't need to be an idiot or "that guy" hitting bottom going into a new harbor every other day.

Marina berths and dock spots: That's a whole new world to us that we don't really know. I understand deep vs. shallow dock berths, just not the whole dynamic of anchoring vs. mooring, vs. staying at a dock, etc. I do appreciate that I'm talking about a boat size range where that may be an issue. I just don't know how much of an issue.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by FabioC

We are going through similar considerations, albeit from a slightly different perspective: we are looking for the largest boat that would feel "easy" for us to handle, meaning we would feel comfortable sailing her in all conditions and maneuvering in the marina.

We currently have a 34-footer, which is an "easy" size for just the two of us for daily sails and short weekend cruises, but feels too small for extensive cruising and ocean passages (not that we could not go on an ocean passage with her, many couples have done it with even much smaller boats; it is just not too appealing for us, we would want a larger boat with more stability and comforts).

She feels "easy" to the two of us because we can handle her in heavy winds, for example we are comfortable flying and jibing even our largest spinnaker in 15-20 knots of wind and docking, undocking, and maneuvering in tight spaces in all conditions (not that those maneuvers cannot be challenging, but they are not "stressful" because of the boat size). There are some tasks that test us a bit even at this size. For example, sheeting in the jib tight with 20+ knots of wind is quite an effort for my wife, raising the main is a good workout even for me, flying the spinnaker in 15+ knot is definitely a workout, and so on.

With significantly larger sails or a taller mast, those same tasks may become real chores and stressful. If handling the boat becomes "uncomfortable" because of size, we could end up, for example, missing opportunities to go out at the spur of the moment, regardless of the wind, as we do with our "little", "easy" current boat.

The tradeoff is not so immediate, as there are many variables to consider. For example, a longer boat would have larger sails and a taller mast, and may be more challenging to handle in tight spaces, but also would have larger winches, perhaps at least one electrical winch, perhaps a bow truster, etc.

My sense is that the sweet spot in length for a couple like us, to feel comfortable that she is not too much boat to handle for the kind of sailing we want to do is in the 44' range. It can easily be longer (even a lot longer) than that if, for example, one added in-mast furling, smaller jibs, cruising spinnakers, etc., but those compromises would not be aligned with the kind of sailing we like to do.

So, I guess there is not a single answer, it very much depends on how the boat is ultimately rigged and the kind of use one wants to optimize her for.

As I mentioned previously, I want a boat that I can easily handle myself, that we can handle without thinking and that if something ever happened to me, she could get it back to a dock without me. Outside of that, I want it to be comfortable and big enough to fit a family with dogs, and I don't want it to be an absolute maintenance nightmare.

Originally Posted by apacit

How much help will you get from your crew? I need to be able to carry my largest sail by myself. Couldn’t do that on something the size you ate talking about. Also be sensitive to operating and maintenance costs. Find % of purchase cost rule of thumb estimates. You are talking about a huge boat that won’t clear bridges or easily find marinas available. That means more time in open water. Is your crew ready for that? For some it works, but be sure before you commit. If you have to ask you may already know the answer.

Best of luck,
John

Crew? Crew will be me, the wife --possibly a pregnant wife, a newborn and dogs. There is no crew unless they are looking for dog treats. More time in open water? Is that a reference to the alternative of mosquito bites, bugs, dodging logs and manatees that is the ICW?

The boats I'm looking at all have drafts less than a Beneteau 36.7. I'm not looking at a Swan 70 fin keel race boat.

Originally Posted by fxykty

When does one need to carry their heaviest sail - the mainsail?

Clearing bridges is really only an issue for the US ICW, so depending on where the OP is that may not be an issue.

I'm not a big fan of mosquitoes, bugs, dodging logs and manatees, waiting for bridges, etc. I'll do it if I have to but I'd rather be outside and going somewhere. Usually if there is a storm and you need to duck in somewhere for weather reasons, not always but usually you can find a place where bridge heights don't matter.

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Just commenting on this the other way. We have a 38-ish ft boat with four children, two adults, one dog, and I don't feel that it is too cramped at all.

Upgrading in size (within the same brand) would mostly mean more space but in a similar configuration -- bigger cabins, higher ceilings but still the same three cabins with double beds, etc. Functionally, it doesn't disperse the 'crowd' much better.

Moving to something where the children would have their own cabins (or at least beds), well, it's hard to find that. Or -- what I like in buildings -- that they could be on another floor far outside hearing distance, that's not easy either

But well, we have only one dog. You are saying dogs, so that's another scenario obviously.

Two dogs. Two females. It was a mistake to rescue a second female but it's too late now, they both sleep in bed with us. One more reason to have kids: Maybe someday the dogs will sleep with the kids and we can get a night alone

How do you do four kids and a dog on a 38? Our kids don't need to have their own rooms/cabins but we also don't expect to pile three kids into a V-berth.


Thanks everyone for the comments. Lots of food for thought. This is certainly starting to be a much more interesting process than either of us thought. Thanks again!

[Fore and Aft]

WCP one thing is for sure your Mrs has good taste. I surveyed an Amel last month and the interior looked like something my Grandmother had decorated. Amels get a big tick on this forum, but that is more to do with the average age of the forum users than anything else.
When you are asking about yacht size, have you just done some random research on marina prices in the areas you would like to cruise? I know all that BS about you will anchor out all the time but there are going to be days when the Mrs with two kids is going to say enough with the dinghy and she would just like to step aboard for a week or two. Trust me,a week of rain and dinghy commuting can break even the toughest sailor.
I just did a quick check at our marina our 32 foot berth is $637 and a 50-55 foot berth is $1100 if you can get one.
Which reminds me have you considered draft for where you are cruising? That Amel I mentioned before had so much mud on its bulb keel from being in a shallow marina berth I had to shovel it off!
Cheers

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by WrongColorPaint

Two dogs. Two females. It was a mistake to rescue a second female but it's too late now, they both sleep in bed with us. One more reason to have kids: Maybe someday the dogs will sleep with the kids and we can get a night alone

How do you do four kids and a dog on a 38? Our kids don't need to have their own rooms/cabins but we also don't expect to pile three kids into a V-berth.

We have a Romanian rescue male

Two children (9 & 11) in the starboard aft cabin, two children (6 & 8) in the port aft cabin, Aiko the dog under the saloon table, I and wife in bow cabin.

The bow cabin is the most "V". The aft cabin double beds are 200 cm long, 150 cm wide, narrowing down to 110 cm. The children fit there very well.

https://nakedsailor.blog/2019/10/13/...he-aft-cabins/

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I think you're asking the wrong question. Come at it the other way: What is the smallest boat you need that will do what you want to do? By looking at it this way you will focus on your actual needs and wants. It forces you to understand what it is your trying to achieve.

Bingo

[Joli]

No matter what boat you buy, no matter the size, no matter where you sail it, it's gonna break. Fix it yourself or try to find a qualified tech to fix it but understand it's gonna break.

We sheared off the top of the Aqua Signal 40 bow light sailing down to the islands last week. We've broken a lot of things over the years sailing but there is always something new to break, we've never broken a new bow light before. Something new will break next week.

[WrongColorPaint]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

WCP one thing is for sure your Mrs has good taste. I surveyed an Amel last month and the interior looked like something my Grandmother had decorated. Amels get a big tick on this forum, but that is more to do with the average age of the forum users than anything else.
When you are asking about yacht size, have you just done some random research on marina prices in the areas you would like to cruise? I know all that BS about you will anchor out all the time but there are going to be days when the Mrs with two kids is going to say enough with the dinghy and she would just like to step aboard for a week or two. Trust me,a week of rain and dinghy commuting can break even the toughest sailor.
I just did a quick check at our marina our 32 foot berth is $637 and a 50-55 foot berth is $1100 if you can get one.
Which reminds me have you considered draft for where you are cruising? That Amel I mentioned before had so much mud on its bulb keel from being in a shallow marina berth I had to shovel it off!
Cheers

$632 for what length of time? We have not looked into pricing. I was planning on figuring out where all the yacht clubs are and then finding out about reciprocal agreements or price discounts, etc.

I'm not exactly sure where we will go. I've spent a bunch of time all over the Caribbean and we have many friends who have cruised down there either for several years or seasonally. To this point all she & I have done is start a shared note on our iPhones. That way when people suggest or say "you have to go to XYZ, it's amazing", then we write down the location and who suggested it. If multiple people suggest the same place, we'll probably put it on the short list of places to visit.

The overall trip and plans are somewhat flexible. We are working on kid #1 right now so we won't leave until kid #1 is done with initial doctor's visits, vaccinations, etc. Then we'll leave and start working on kid #2. Because of that, plans need to be a little flexible. If we leave in a year and get knocked up with kid #2 quickly then us and the boat will be back home for hurricane season 2022. If she's feeling fine and comfortable sailing then we may take a couple long-ish trips and go see places a little further away. If she's having a rough go at it, we may find ourselves mostly at marinas or yacht clubs and only take short day trips. It really depends. The Caribbean is really meant to be somewhat of a primer for a couple years until we are done with kids and really head out.

Why do people hate on Amel boats so much? I know the interior decorating is an acquired taste but they are pretty stout and comfortable boats. I really like the hard lifeline, the engine room access from the cockpit, the electric everything, the amount of water and fuel (which to be fair is similar to all the other boats we are looking at), I like a ketch rig and I really like the helm location.

I realize that down below in an Amel looks like 1980 threw up all over it. The lifeline thing is easy (just takes money and fabrication) but what other boats have engine room access from the cockpit floor like that? What other boats have a helm location like that?

We like a lot about the new Sou'wester 53 but that's going to be way over budget and the aft cockpit/open transom is something that worries us. Similar with the new Moody 54 DS: Price and transom. We even like the Jimmy Buffet boat (Surfari 50). Besides price, that boat isn't really set up to live on (in my opinion). What she wants is the Surfari 58 or Moody 54 DS and I'd be happy with something that's a little older, much more traditional and that's already gone around once.

[malbert73]

Maybe I missed it or not. I would suggest against buying new unless you’ve truly deep pockets and can go new from a high-quality builder. Otherwise production boat new is a huge depreciation and lots of wrinkles that need to get ironed out due to installation of systems being shoddy.
So, maybe best low maintenance is a five year old production boat where systems are not at the end of the ten year cycle yet, but new boat problems have been ironed out. But maybe avoid Ex charter.
I also didn’t see hard-core Bluewater passage making but rather coastal with some short offshore hops? This forum tends to bias toward recommendations around hard-core offshore but the reality is many cruisers always are within a day or two of land and prefer sleeping overnight and coastal hopping in which case production boats are perfectly fine.
I love my tartan and the build quality really shows at its age when most people think it’s less than 10 years old and it’s actually 33 years old. We cruise up to 2-3 weeks at a time with 2 kids and us and 2 cats, quite comfortably. If we were to take off for a year + it could be better in bigger boat. But after seven years I have my boat exactly where I want it in maintenance cycle, major upgrades, and comforts so it would be tough for me to change.
So if you are going older suggest a well-maintained higher quality builder as my experience with my boat in seven years has been excellent in terms of relatively few breakdowns.
If I were doing what you were doing I would actually look for a 5 to 10 year old Catalina with shallow draft. Like a 400 (limited storage) or 445. My opinion from knowing owners and being aboard them is Catalinas tend to be a cut above standard production yachts in both quality of build, installation of systems and access. My 2 cents.
I’m also pretty sure a boat like a Bene 473 that’s been well-maintained could also do pretty well but I’m not as convinced about their build quality particularly the grid and the rudder.

[Fore and Aft]

WCP that marina cost was for a month.
As for the Amel not being popular among some people I can think of three reasons straight away. That custom French designed sail drive (Propeller shaft) on the back of the keel is just interesting, the keel design is really dated and looks like my lad designed it with his Lego and the ketch rig. Nothing wrong with a ketch but the cost of rigging her will be at least 50% more than a sloop. That could easily cost $15,000-$20,000 to re-rig her in Australia. The last Amel I surveyed needed both the masts removed and painted. The engine room access is sweet, I will give the Amel that. But you are in total dream land if you think you are going to be servicing the engine while the Mrs cooks dinner, minds two toddlers and the dog? LOL, you won't need air conditioning that's for sure, your Mrs will be giving you plenty of cold shoulder if that happens. The reality is the family will head to the beach in the dinghy while you get stuck into whatever needs fixing so then if you have to pull the yacht apart it doesn't matter.
But I think you are totally overthinking the engine room access. Water pump access, easy filter access and access to the shaft seal would be my priorities. We are talking a diesel engine here, there is stuff all tweaking to be done really. Even the oil change is mostly done by sucking the oil out of the dipstick. I would bet most of the boats I surveyed have had only the most basic maintenance done on their diesels and they have lasted thousands of hours.
Another thing I just thought off is the cost of antifouling, you will use around 20 litres on an Amel so thats another $1000 every two years plus slipping costs. All these costs are related to size that's why Mike, LittleWing etc are all advocates for a smaller yacht.
Cheers