Thank you all for the replies. We are trying to navigate through this boat search process and it is turning out to be much more complicated than either of us thought. (no fights/yelling yet though)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muaddib1116
But size often gives you more room to access things, making it easier for you to diy, or reducing hours for a professional.
I'm guessing you are liking Amels and the admiral is looking at the new Hylas designs. I'm curious where you are located that getting marine stainless work is cheap... |
We are slightly south of you. I have a
racing background and don't really know cruising
boats that much. I like Amel because of the
steering wheel. I think that a
wheel on
autopilot in the middle of the
cockpit may not always play nice with dog tails and babies/young
kids. And with the percentage of time you manually steer vs. autopilot/at anchor/dock/mooring, The
steering wheel location isn't that important to me. (I know sacrilege but it's the truth)
Stainless
work: I'd probably do it myself. I have a pretty decent Lincoln welding machine (gtaw). I have dies to bend roll cage tubing (may need smaller dies for SS boat tubing) but I'm sure I can figure it out. I know a couple SS metal shops around but I agree with your sentiment that it is not
cheap. It's a hobby for me so I'd give it a shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fore and Aft
WCP I think it just comes down to money when you start getting bigger. Some of my wealthier clients on bigger boats just head to the nearest hotel while the maintenance gets done. Not that bigger issue and you can always hang around and supervise while the work gets done. As for one single person doing the work, you would have to be an exceptional all rounder to understand and maintain all the systems properly on a yacht.
Cheers |
I'm pretty handy with most stuff and I have enough boat systems and mechanical experience to know that it's going to take TIME to learn the boat and many
mistakes at first. Of all things my weakest link is probably
diesel injection but I'll figure that out. If I'm not confident I'll find a junk/scrap injection
pump before we leave and
rebuild it at home so I can carry a list of spares and tools with me.
I'm not a checkbook owner. That's also my worry. When I owned a track car every spare minute I had was spent getting it ready for the next
race. I want to actually sail somewhere and enjoy it. And I'd also like to go places where we can't just write checks to fix things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muaddib1116
Having hidden pop up entertainment systems, rather than a bulkhead mounted tv.
I'm guessing you are liking Amels and the admiral is looking at the new Hylas designs. I'm curious where you are located that getting marine stainless work is cheap... |
Didn't address these earlier. Yes, she likes the Hylas and I like the ugly boat I consider to be more safe, stout, robust, intuitive (as intuitive as a Frenchman can be), etc.
Hidden pop-up garbage: All I can think about is vacuuming out the dog hair and
kids dropping
food down into those pop-up holes. That's an absolute disaster waiting to happen. We would ditch stuff like that before we leave the
dock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
I think you're asking the wrong question. Come at it the other way: What is the smallest boat you need that will do what you want to do? By looking at it this way you will focus on your actual needs and wants. It forces you to understand what it is your trying to achieve.
|
I agree with you. Rather than asking "how big can I go", I look at it as: How small can I go without wanting to shoot myself when I need to access something to perform
repairs or maintenance? People say that the difference between a 50 and 55 is access to mechanicals and space. Not much difference in layout. I would rather have smaller, less loads on lines/sheets/sails/boat/rigging, etc. less maintenance, less
bottom paint, less awlgrip to spray, less
fuel to buy, less
oil to change. I also want something big enough that she can cook dinner while I mess with something that needs repair. I don't want to tear apart the entire boat to do maintenance. I'd also like something with enough space that it's easy to access things and work on them. If it's right there and it's easy to access, it won't break. If it is a royal pain to access and the maintenance or repair completely disrupts the boat --it'll break.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako
There's a saying that cruising is "being a boat mechanic in paradise". It's true for smaller boats. Super true for big ones. "Hours and Effort" = every spare minute aboard. |
That's what I don't want. The goal in going sailing is to spend time together and raise kids for a few years, not be a
mechanic and spend more time apart than we do now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham
You don't mention the age of the kids and that could make a big difference. Older teenagers may be crew, younger teenagers may be competent to steer or take a watch when someone else is awake below but not strong enough for many jobs. Prior to teenage years kids are going to add to the workload as you will need to supervise them as well as the boat! As others have said it is complexity rather than size that is likely to make the difference but on a boats above 50ft with a single mast rig changing sails becomes a 3/4 person job just because of the weight of the sails. While you can use power winches for sail trim and hoisting their are some things that still require manual handling. I would definitely suggest you look at this aspect and maybe look at ketches or schooners with a well broken up sail plan. It is much quicker and easier to drop than reef it and if you go for all powered furlers it is likely to compromise sailing performance in light to moderate conditions. This tends to be an issue on larger boats, they do have higher hull speeds but need more wind power to drive them. You really don't want a boat that needs 25kn wind to get to cruising speed! My ideal rig for this sort of size and crew would probably be a classic schooner with 2 equal sized masts, twin furling head sails on the foremast, fisherman aft of the foremast, jib and a fully battened main on the aft mast. While this will not give high pointing ability it would be very easy to control short handed with power winches and quite reasonable without as no sail will be larger than 4-500sq ft. Off the wind she should sparkle and the fisherman is a delight for close quarters or sailing up a river. Look them up and see if you have never come across one. |
We are working on kid #1 right now. I'd do several (4-5), she wants two and would do three. But who knows. When it comes down to it, maybe I'll shoot blanks and we won't be able to have kids. Yes, I am very aware of young kids. I feel like I'll be single handing, especially since we hope to have a few kids. That's one of my concerns about boat maintenance: A newborn,
dogs and a pregnant wife...
One of the reasons why I like Amel is the
ketch rig. Not just smaller sails, LOTS more options to balance the boat, given
weather conditions and sea state. (she thinks they are ugly boats and does not like the looks/aesthetics)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncohen226
We've asked the same question and where we've landed is selecting a boat that my husband and I could comfortably handle in all kinds of conditions.
This includes equipment working and not working (like electric winches), and if one of us gets hurt / incapacitated, can the other one manage? Sailing is a commitment that does not, in many instances, afford you to access help expeditiously.
So, in my mind it comes down getting our heads around these questions:
- what kind of sailors are we?
- what kind of sailing do we want to do (safety / size / anchoring (keel depth / access to marina / service shops)?
- how flexible is the layout to accommodate changing requirements?
- what kind of redundancies are important? and
- what happens when the kids no longer come (how long do we want to own the boat for?). |
Thanks for that comment. We want something we can handle together easily and that she can eventually manage solo (she is still learning). What kind of sailors are we: Probably in over our heads
What do we want to do: Island hop in the
Caribbean for a year or two, have a few more kids, then assuming we are both on the same page with sailing, have a conversation about when we
head west.
When kids no longer come: They will be babies. You can't really plan life out that far but ideally, we want to end our trip when they are middle school-ish aged so they can play sports and have a bit of a more traditional land-based education. We aren't selling our house and plan on coming back from time to time for weddings, funerals, other
events, etc.
We are discussing two types of boats, one that we buy for the trip and sell when we get back, and one that might check enough boxes that we hang onto it long enough that our grandkids might have the pleasure of dealing with when we are gone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Singularity
^^^This.
Number and type of systems present vs not. Accessible vs not.
I'd just emphasize...the older the systems on the boat, the more likely you are going to need to repeair/replace them, such that accesibility would be more of a concern. Accessibility including wiring/plumbing/through-deck connections/tanks hiding behind what starts as maybe a beautiful interior that's not been touched since leaving the factory.
One intriguing subject brought up before about families aboard: do you want your families to share more space (e.g. 2 children sharing a birth) or not. Interesting arguments both ways, but something for the ~childhood development aspect to chew on. |
Others have mentioned crew, kids, chores, etc. When I was young we had a
wood stove. My brother and I would often (very often, we were terrors) have to go out and split and stack
wood as a punishment. I think with kids it all depends. I'm not sure I would want our kids to share a
bed or single birth but I shared a room growing up with my brother and she shared a room with her sister. We both come from big families --you are family, figure it out.
Now the question that comes up when you have two boys and a girl, and why does the girl get the double birth
cabin and the two boys get bunk pipe births --she's your sister and a girl, get over it.
One of the reasons why we are willing to spend a little more on a boat is accessibility. I want everything to be accessible so that it can be inspected, maintained or repaired. Easily and without destroying the boat. That is one thing I'm willing to pay for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by contrail
I agree that a catamaran is worth considering, since the added space can make maintenance easier. I live on a 1999 Leopard 45, which is roughly equivalent to a 55 foot monohull and have done so for 16 years. Prior to that, I lived aboard a 33 foot mono for 19 years. I singlehanded the 33 and I singlehand the cat, and have skippered the cat in charter for most of my time with it. The 33 footer was well equipped, but nothing like the bigger cat. However, almost everything was hard to get at. On the cat, by contrast, everything is super easy to get at. It's almost like working in a workshop except for the bilge pumps (go figure). I literally never have those projects where you spend hours getting at the bolt on the back of something. I did have those days on the smaller mono. On the cat, I have two engines, a generator a watermaker, three airconditioners, three refrigerator systems, two fresh water systems, four heads and six showers, for starters. Quite a bit of stuff. But not bad for maintenance, due, I think, to the fact that the early Leopards, like mine, were specifically designed for charter with the Moorings, and the Moorings was interested in not wasting time and effort because access was difficult. Even a tank or engine or generator or mast can be removed in short order. I was amazed.
All of which goes to say that I would see if I could get on one of the boats you are considering, with your wife, and go to each system and figure out how you would need to maintain it. Only then would I decide on the boat, and what systems you want, with her input and realization of what will be involved. And, don't forget to include cats, which may be more suited to what you intend to do. Best of luck. |
With COVID it's really hard to get on boats. I've been around boats all of my life so I have a general feel for the style and quirks of different brands, but I could care less --happy wife, happy life and right now we can't run around looking at boats the way someone could two years ago. If we could get on boats easily so she could get a feel for things, I wouldn't have created an account here. For us, this is going to be a sizable
purchase and a huge decision. The hard part and reality is that I ***think*** I've been around boats enough to know what I want and/or what would work. That said, she wears the pants and I wish it could be a more mutual decision. I hate looking at pictures and then hearing her say "pick whatever boat because you know more than me".
Regarding cat boats I'll say this:
I don't know catamarans and I don't want to start a giant disaster of a debate. I did a
delivery on a medium sized one about 15 years ago and I flipped a small one over at a tourist resort down in the
Caribbean about 20 years ago. Other than that I have zero experience with cat boats. They may be better suited for what we want, easier, cheaper, overall better, etc. --but I wouldn't feel comfortable
buying a cat and putting my family on it. We'll buy a
monohull boat. That may sound ignorant but it is what it is. I respect that people love them. I'm just saying I don't know enough and don't feel comfortable enough to try one out for the first time when we are talking about going sailing for a few years. I didn't mean for that comment to be rude in any way. Hopefully if this works out and she loves it as much as I want her to love it --then we'll get on a few cats here and there and get some experience with them. I'm OK being ignorant and saying I won't consider a cat at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emouchet
Maintenance is a big part of full time cruising. This is the reality. Watch the Youtube sailing channels. There is always something.
At every anchorage I have been for more than a day or 2, if you start talking to the neighbors, you will find there is at least a boat stucked, waiting for parts or cannot move until this or that is fixed.
Somebody even said that "Sailing around the word is actually fixing your boat in remote location". This means something.
The more systems you will have on your boat, the more time you will spend maintaining them or fixing them.
Having money will help as you can pay someone to do the job. But you will not be cruising during that time. And sometime, you may need to wait significant time (weeks...) to get it done, unless you decide you can live without this or that. |
In my opinion, the YouTube channels are terrible. They are one of the reasons why my other half is worried about going sailing. The popular videos are not reality --mostly drama and edited clickbait. We want to go sailing. Probably bounce around the Caribbean until I become celibate for roughly 20-years (until we are done having kids), and then once they are old enough that initial US doctor visits and vaccinations are done, we'll head west and see what happens.
I don't mean to be negative about the YouTube channels, it's just that I know people who have circumnavigated and we have one of those YouTube couples at a marina fixing a boat pretty close to us right now. It's not reality.
I'm not worried about our checkbook. I'm worried about the amount of work it takes to make sure something on the boat doesn't fail when we are someplace where there are no people or where Amex doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DockDoc
So to summarize, if you have a lot of experience and get a nice made Amel or equivalent you can probably safely go pretty big, 50-65 feet. I sailed comfortably with 6 of us, no dogs, on an older 1970s S&S 48 swan. My buddy's 2009 Amel is a super sail, built like a tank, looks like a Bently and would accommodate your needs as well. Many features such as side boarding, not transom boarding help those who aren't as able-bodied.
If you don't have much experience you're going to be pretty unhappy with a big boat, they require a lot of attention and money. The less attention you pay to them, the more money you will.
Good luck!
|
The ocean gives no **#+$ about your desires and money, experience it has some modicum of respect for.
I respect that statement. Thanks.
I'm not worried about me, I'm worried about her. All I do is work right now. We want to go sailing so we can spend time together and be present while we raise our kids, especially when they are young. I can get a boat from point A to point B --I just don't want to get there and have to go back to work (boat maintenance) because that would be no different than what we have now with no boat.
Regarding sailing, I know my limitations. I want a boat that's easy for the two of us. Something that I can comfortably handle alone. Non-Negotiable: I want something that if I were to get hurt, she could make it back to a
dock or harbor without my help or me on board. Nice to have or want to have: I'd like something big enough that she can bring her Kitchen Aid mixer that she loves to cook and bake with. I'd give up my coffee maker and use a French press if she could have her mixer.
The dogs should be fine. I think I have enough experience. I can sail, sew, weld, I don't have much
diesel experience but I can build a gasoline
race motor, we gutted our last house to the studs and I did everything:
plumbing, heat,
electric,drywall, carpentry, etc. I think I know boats well enough that I can hear a
winch when the pauls start to stick and need repacking and I can hear/feel a sticky shive or spot a chafe on a section of line. I think I know but I don't know what I don't know.
There's a swan
ketch I really like that's close to us. Probably not the right boat for us but it's really close and I love the lines (she likes it too). It's a shallow
centerboard, ketch boat. Beautiful lines (in my opinion). Has coffee grinders too --I think those would be fun for kids someday. It's always been my opinion that Swans are a more "athletic" or active or manual boat. Not push-button electric
winch lazy but more of a
racing focus vs. Amel "everything is thought of" focus. Can you
cruise on an older Swan easily? I really like that boat but I'm not sure it's the right one for us.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffhanger
Another important consideration is draft. As boats get bigger, the keels tend to get deeper. Depending on where you sail this may not be an issue but I sail on the Queensland coast where draft of 2m and above can be a real liability. One of the reasons why there are so many catamarans in Qld. Another consideration is the availability of marina berths. The bigger the boat, the less options there are. Again, this might not be a problem in the areas you plan to sail. |
We plan on Caribbean for a bit and then head your direction. We will try to stay as shallow as we can. Don't want to close doors to great spots and also knowing me/myself --I don't need to be an idiot or "that guy" hitting bottom going into a new harbor every other day.
Marina berths and dock spots: That's a whole new world to us that we don't really know. I understand deep vs. shallow dock berths, just not the whole dynamic of
anchoring vs.
mooring, vs. staying at a dock, etc. I do appreciate that I'm talking about a boat size range where that may be an issue. I just don't know how much of an issue.
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabioC
We are going through similar considerations, albeit from a slightly different perspective: we are looking for the largest boat that would feel "easy" for us to handle, meaning we would feel comfortable sailing her in all conditions and maneuvering in the marina.
We currently have a 34-footer, which is an "easy" size for just the two of us for daily sails and short weekend cruises, but feels too small for extensive cruising and ocean passages (not that we could not go on an ocean passage with her, many couples have done it with even much smaller boats; it is just not too appealing for us, we would want a larger boat with more stability and comforts).
She feels "easy" to the two of us because we can handle her in heavy winds, for example we are comfortable flying and jibing even our largest spinnaker in 15-20 knots of wind and docking, undocking, and maneuvering in tight spaces in all conditions (not that those maneuvers cannot be challenging, but they are not "stressful" because of the boat size). There are some tasks that test us a bit even at this size. For example, sheeting in the jib tight with 20+ knots of wind is quite an effort for my wife, raising the main is a good workout even for me, flying the spinnaker in 15+ knot is definitely a workout, and so on.
With significantly larger sails or a taller mast, those same tasks may become real chores and stressful. If handling the boat becomes "uncomfortable" because of size, we could end up, for example, missing opportunities to go out at the spur of the moment, regardless of the wind, as we do with our "little", "easy" current boat.
The tradeoff is not so immediate, as there are many variables to consider. For example, a longer boat would have larger sails and a taller mast, and may be more challenging to handle in tight spaces, but also would have larger winches, perhaps at least one electrical winch, perhaps a bow truster, etc.
My sense is that the sweet spot in length for a couple like us, to feel comfortable that she is not too much boat to handle for the kind of sailing we want to do is in the 44' range. It can easily be longer (even a lot longer) than that if, for example, one added in-mast furling, smaller jibs, cruising spinnakers, etc., but those compromises would not be aligned with the kind of sailing we like to do.
So, I guess there is not a single answer, it very much depends on how the boat is ultimately rigged and the kind of use one wants to optimize her for. |
As I mentioned previously, I want a boat that I can easily handle myself, that we can handle without thinking and that if something ever happened to me, she could get it back to a dock without me. Outside of that, I want it to be comfortable and big enough to fit a family with dogs, and I don't want it to be an absolute maintenance nightmare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apacit
How much help will you get from your crew? I need to be able to carry my largest sail by myself. Couldn’t do that on something the size you ate talking about. Also be sensitive to operating and maintenance costs. Find % of purchase cost rule of thumb estimates. You are talking about a huge boat that won’t clear bridges or easily find marinas available. That means more time in open water. Is your crew ready for that? For some it works, but be sure before you commit. If you have to ask you may already know the answer.
Best of luck,
John |
Crew? Crew will be me, the wife --possibly a pregnant wife, a newborn and dogs. There is no crew unless they are looking for dog treats. More time in open water? Is that a reference to the alternative of mosquito bites, bugs, dodging
logs and manatees that is the
ICW?
The boats I'm looking at all have drafts less than a
Beneteau 36.7. I'm not looking at a Swan 70 fin
keel race boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty
When does one need to carry their heaviest sail - the mainsail?
Clearing bridges is really only an issue for the US ICW, so depending on where the OP is that may not be an issue. |
I'm not a big fan of mosquitoes, bugs, dodging
logs and manatees, waiting for bridges, etc. I'll do it if I have to but I'd rather be outside and going somewhere. Usually if there is a storm and you need to duck in somewhere for
weather reasons, not always but usually you can find a place where bridge heights don't matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mglonnro
Just commenting on this the other way. We have a 38-ish ft boat with four children, two adults, one dog, and I don't feel that it is too cramped at all.
Upgrading in size (within the same brand) would mostly mean more space but in a similar configuration -- bigger cabins, higher ceilings but still the same three cabins with double beds, etc. Functionally, it doesn't disperse the 'crowd' much better.
Moving to something where the children would have their own cabins (or at least beds), well, it's hard to find that. Or -- what I like in buildings -- that they could be on another floor far outside hearing distance, that's not easy either
But well, we have only one dog. You are saying dogs, so that's another scenario obviously. |
Two dogs. Two females. It was a mistake to
rescue a second female but it's too late now, they both sleep in
bed with us. One more reason to have kids: Maybe someday the dogs will sleep with the kids and we can get a night alone
How do you do four kids and a dog on a 38? Our kids don't need to have their own rooms/cabins but we also don't expect to pile three kids into a V-berth.
Thanks everyone for the comments. Lots of
food for thought. This is certainly starting to be a much more interesting process than either of us thought. Thanks again!
. I said: "What is the smallest boat you need that will do what you want to do?" You phrased it as "the least to achieve my goals." Same thing 
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