At what point does a boat start to get too big? (family, kids, maintenance concerns)

[Jimmyhenry]

We have a Cal 46. Centre cockpit. Ketch. Easy handling and great offshore.
Full engine room with head room and workshop. Two complete heads with shower etc. But only two cabins (aft and focsle). But Kids may want separate berths.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by WrongColorPaint

We are not looking to incite internet drama. Simply asking for feedback from those who are sailing with young kids and dogs, where is the threshold or at what point does the amount of effort and time it takes to operate and maintain a boat start to become unreasonable as the length of the boat gets larger?

There seems to be a sweet-spot between the 47ft and 54ft range of boats. Lots of people sailing with kids and families on 47's through 54's. The HR49 & 54, Oyster stops at 52, Hylas 47/49/54, Amel, I am sure there are a few other non-production names we missed.

I'm not asking about cost of maintenance vs. cost of ownership/purchase, I mean actual hours and effort. At what point does a boat start to become bigger, more complicated, sophisticated and most importantly, time consuming to the point that two people (with family/kids/dogs) start to feel like the boat is a full-time job?

Asking because just like everyone else: We want the safest and most comfortable boat we can afford.

I am thinking that a 49-54 is a size where if you have the money to stay on top of everything religiously, then you shouldn't have too many surprises. Anything larger than a 55-ish boat starts to get BIG, complicated and time consuming for a couple (husband/wife) to manage. Anything smaller than a 44/45-47-ish ft boat starts to get really crowded and small. (with kids/dogs) I am not talking about boat handling, sailing or passage. I mean the time it takes to fix or maintain the physical stuff on a boat.

I understand not all boats are equal. Is what I said above a good platform or opinion to start from given the names we referenced? We each have our minds made up. I like a 54 and she likes a 55 so we have a size that we roughly agree on. Problem is the boat I like has less creature comforts (space, stuff) but is much more serviceable. The boat she likes is much more new, modern, spacious --and I'll have to tear the kitchen/boat half-apart to do an oil change or perform service.

I think that what we want cannot be had in a 54/55-ish foot boat. I think that to get what we want is going to require a 60-65 ft boat and if I had to guess, a boat that big starts to be really big and time consuming for a couple with kids to operate and maintain. That has nothing to do with money --even if you only write checks, you still have to address the maintenance and issues. If you need to do an oil change, you can write a check or DIY but if you have to tear apart the galley/kitchen sink to get at the motor, then that puts the boat (galley) offline for a period of time regardless of DIY or writing the check.

I'm really trying to keep boat models/styles/brands out of this topic. We are not looking at typical production boats but at the same time, we are trying to narrow down based on our set of criteria: draft, cabins, tanks, sailplan, center cockpit, etc. If I like a boat because it has solid lifelines throughout and she likes a boat because the lines look sexy (and she thinks the solid lifeline boat looks ugly), then happy wife, happy life: A stainless fabrication shop can extend out and make solid push/pulpit for cheap --again, happy wife, happy life. Doesn't matter the brand and I'm not looking for "I sold my XYZ brand boat that was terrible and bought an ABC boat and have never had problems".

At what point does a boat that is 3-5 feet smaller make a difference?

Thank you. Hopefully we will find a boat by end of February, 2021.

Probably the ONLY thing that we would consider in terms of size is going a little bigger so that we have the space to modify stairs to make it easier for dogs and grandparents to get in/out of the cabin.

Thanks.

Everyone (family) has their own threshold beyond which a boat becomes a burden. Elements going into that equation are the family's ability to get the jobs that need to be done completed properly and all the work shared via individual abilities. Generally speaking, bigger boats have more creature comforts, therefore more systems equipment which needs tending and sophistication opens the door to complexity and non-repairability only replacement.

That said, your lack of concern about cost is enviable; the fact that your wife does not share your concerns is foretelling. However, go for it. It appears you can afford this family adventure and any outcome. Please share your answer to your own question via this forum.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[thataway41]

Not having children yet--or shortly to have one or two is so much different than two teens. We sailed with two early teens (at first), and a Labrador retriever. (Later we had two Labs, but the kids were in graduate school after college.)

Here is what I think is ideal--and basically what we had. The master stateroom and head aft. Pilot house, with galley up, chart table, inside station and large dining table. Lower saloon. Seating on both sides, a desk and a table large enough for 3 - 4 could eat at. Two forward staterooms and a head. The pilot house table could be a double berth, the lower saloon also had two settees which were could be double berths--foreward staterooms--one was a queen bunk and the other was upper and lower bunks. This was flexible enough that we could accommodate in coastal cruising 8 people --two families with two children. Yet on passages (such as trans Atlantic) we could handle the boat alone (I was in late forties with the first boat--wife in late 30's). I even sailed it alone without a functioning transmission. We had large freezer and refer, water maker, generator and tankage which would allow 3000 miles under power at 6 knots. We had a 10' fiberglass tender on davits on the stern, and a 13' inflatable on the foredeck (deflated for passages). We also carried two motor bikes near the mast (Ketch)

Later (Kids were in graduate school) we had a Cal 46 sloop (rigged removable inner forstay, and runners for storm jib) which we modified the stern to give an inset swim step and stairs up to the aft deck--a 9' high radar arch with brackets for lines and outboard motors, a SS round stock going between the legs of the radar arch just above the deck level, with a trailer roller in the center, and an electric reel winch on the aft combing so that a 12 1/2' RIB could be easily deployed or brought aboard over the transom. There was room for a second smaller inflatable also on the aft deck.

Buy the boat for the function you are doing now--and maybe in the next few years. Don't try and forecast what it will be 10 years from now. Dogs--have boxes with fine mesh SS screen around the bilge pumps pickup. Have redundancy, so when cleaning one pump, the second can take over. (Same for most systems.). Learn how to repair all systems, carry spares and tools, if you plan on crossing oceans. The first boat had lots of varnish--the second practically none. Avoid teak decks. When I see galleys down in the hole near the main mast--I think of the old yachts who had a professional cook--my wonderful wife wanted her galley up in the pilot house. It works well. Do you really want the master stateroom in the bow? Slap, chain noise, more motion. Agree, access to all systems should be easy. If that means pulling the cockpit floor, to get to engine and generator--its better than crawling on hands and knees. (The Cal 46 engine room was great--even had a decent work bench).

[skenn_ie]

Umm, not sailing or even cruising (yet), but I should have bought a smaller boat. Mine is a 106ft ex-minesweeper. There is just me and a dog at present. My daughter, though a sailing instructor, has moved off and is living on land.

[OkiMike]

We're a family of 5 on a 1973 53' monohull (ketch).

We've lived aboard for 3 years and are still upgrading initial outdated systems. The time suck and headache factor comes when you're knee deep in upgrading a major system but get disrupted due to a smaller system breaking that requires you to divert your time and energy to it, then pivot back to the big thing. Figuring it out as you go, even referencing the great internet, still means you're first attempt is likely to fail sooner than later, so you're seemingly always in the midst of something.

The larger the boat the more paneling, doors, flooring, etc. have to be removed to get access to whatever it is you're doing. Most of the time is spent tracing existing cabling (there are miles of it), going back and forth for tools, then redoing whatever needs to be done, then testing, then replacing all the paneling/access.

Larger boats mean more winches, more ports, more insulation, more lights, more outlets, more wires, and more things that have to be undone so you can even begin to work on things.

As some have mentioned, the design of the boat plays a HUGE factor. Our engine, for example, is located directly beneath the floorboards of the galley/salon floor so any amount of engine or bilge work requires intruding on normal life and must therefore be scheduled for a time when the wife and kids are off the boat.

That said, we love our boat and have settled into a routine, but living in the PNW with 9 months of cold weather lowers the pleasure-to-pain ratio to about 1:3. Once we have everything upgraded, we'll move to warmer climates and see if that doesn't brighten the mood.

[john manning]

I met a sailing family in Fiji in 2011. They were from Canada and had two teenage children. They were sailing a 36ft monohull. When we asked them about that they said it took some organisation to give everyone their own space but it worked. They were a great example of a happy family enjoying life.

The other significant thing they said was that when choosing a boat affordability matters more than size. Their definition of affordable was a yacht they could abandon if necessary. Because they had the children with them they had to be prepared to leave the yacht in a rescue situation instead of fighting on to save it.

[Old fella]

What size boat needed ? Just my wife and I, the smaller the better, when we had the kids, the size of an ocean liner.

[Simi 60]

We found in our case buying the bigger boat actually works out cheaper

Size gives comfort
Size to have a proper laundry and not need to find one
Space to carry several months worth of provisions - buy in bulk
Ability to carry a large, robust, fast tender to bring back those several months worth of provisions from afar.
The space and comfort to not feel the need to "escape" the boat
The size and comfort to anchor out and not pay for marinas
It allows us to carry large battery weight and 2.2kw solar array so no power issues running multiple off the shelf 240v refrigeration units or need for shore power

If we had a smaller boat we would not be able to do most of the above and would need to get a job to pay for the extra expense of a marina and a car needed to get to the job

Because we don't need to do that, the savings on not needing marina and car cover the cost of our paid maintenance and not needing to work for someone else to pay for marina and car gives us time to do stuff we want to do.

60 ft vessel, 2 people and a cat.

[Dirrawig]

I have a 50' boat and sail around Pittwater NSW. Beware that on anything bigger you have problems on anchor and moorings swinging around and hitting other boats. Also most marinas appear to be designed with bays for sub 50' boats. Most swing moorings I have come across, are spaced so that my 50' only just fits, and that not all the time!!

To me its a no brainer, 47-53' is the largest you ever want, assuming you would like to stop and stay somewhere!

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dirrawig

I have a 50' boat and sail around Pittwater NSW. Beware that on anything bigger you have problems on anchor and moorings swinging around and hitting other boats. Also most marinas appear to be designed with bays for sub 50' boats. Most swing moorings I have come across, are spaced so that my 50' only just fits, and that not all the time!!

To me its a no brainer, 47-53' is the largest you ever want, assuming you would like to stop and stay somewhere!

Solution.
Don't stay in Sydney, moorings or marinas.
Get out into the world and have anchorages to yourself.

[Dirrawig]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Solution.
Don't stay in Sydney, moorings or marinas.
Get out into the world and have anchorages to yourself.

Absolutely, however some of us still have to work for a living and only have time for short distance causing right now, so Pittwater, Hawkesbury, Sydney harbour and weekend trips it is. Trying to find a anchorage, in range, all to myself is not so easy around that population base.

Maybe in a few years time. Meanwhile I am happy my 50' will fit most locations.

[NormanMartin]

I am in the camp with Mike O'Reilly, how small can you go. Simplicity is the key. The dinghy, you have to be able to stow/launch a dinghy easily.

My pal with a 35 footer has so many systems that he was mostly a facilities manager when they voyaged. My boat (just sold) was about the same length, few systems and we had a lot of fun not being facility managers or worrying about jobs left undone.

In the early 1960s I lived aboard a 48 ft wooden Alden yawl built in 1921, gaff rigged, cotton sails, mom, dad, four young kids between 4 and 10 (me). Hard to imagine a simpler boat. It was a fantastic 2 years. I remember a lot of play time and thought helping dad was a treat because it was never drudgery. Simple...

Smile and go... it's all about going.

Norm, Cape Cod

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by WrongColorPaint

We are not looking to incite internet drama. Simply asking for feedback from those who are sailing with young kids and dogs, where is the threshold or at what point does the amount of effort and time it takes to operate and maintain a boat start to become unreasonable as the length of the boat gets larger?

I didn't read past post #6 because I know how the replies in general would go.

Personally I think that from a "time it takes to operate and maintain a boat" the difference between a 30' and 60' hardy really matters at all in the big picture. It is like saying the time it takes to mow the lawn for a 1/2 acre yard takes a lot more total time than on a 1/4 acre one.

In fact a lot of maintenance etc. is easier on a bigger boat due to better system access.

In the meantime the enjoyment and life quality of a couple with kids living on a 50' boat compared to a 35' is HUGE and occurs every minute you are there.

So if you can afford the larger boat and want to be happy get the larger boat!

[pbmaise]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

You don't mention the age of the kids and that could make a big difference. Older teenagers may be crew, younger teenagers may be competent to steer or take a watch when someone else is awake below but not strong enough for many jobs. Prior to teenage years kids are going to add to the workload as you will need to supervise them as well as the boat! As others have said it is complexity rather than size that is likely to make the difference but on a boats above 50ft with a single mast rig changing sails becomes a 3/4 person job just because of the weight of the sails. While you can use power winches for sail trim and hoisting their are some things that still require manual handling. I would definitely suggest you look at this aspect and maybe look at ketches or schooners with a well broken up sail plan. It is much quicker and easier to drop than reef it and if you go for all powered furlers it is likely to compromise sailing performance in light to moderate conditions. This tends to be an issue on larger boats, they do have higher hull speeds but need more wind power to drive them. You really don't want a boat that needs 25kn wind to get to cruising speed! My ideal rig for this sort of size and crew would probably be a classic schooner with 2 equal sized masts, twin furling head sails on the foremast, fisherman aft of the foremast, jib and a fully battened main on the aft mast. While this will not give high pointing ability it would be very easy to control short handed with power winches and quite reasonable without as no sail will be larger than 4-500sq ft. Off the wind she should sparkle and the fisherman is a delight for close quarters or sailing up a river. Look them up and see if you have never come across one.


Here is an example

I also regard the rig as being the more important question than the vessel. The larger the rig, the more work it is and greater the risk. It took me years to accept the fact that being a cruising sailor means a giant rig is not good just because you can reef it smaller. A giant rig is still a giant rig and it represents a big expense.

Had I cut down my rig size aboard my vessel when I began ownership, my cruising experience would have been far more enjoyable.

Further, the style of sailing also contributes to live ability. I like to sleep at night and not have to worry about my sails and squalls. I found that dropping the main completely at dark eliminated many late night issues. In the waters I was sailing, the wind usually dropped near zero at night anyway.

Obviously my vessel is on the big size...this said...the fact a trimaran only has one engine to maintain eliminates more than 70% of the typical engine maintenance of a catamaran. The problem with most catamarans is the dang sail drive that always seems to need work. So catamarans suffer from having two engines to maintain as well as sail drives.

[Hesti]

To add more aspects to worry about, some old stuff: On a steel boat, you are likely going to chase corrosion around the boat in circles. But in case of a collision or grounding, chances are, that you have a dent where wood or FRP would have a hole. And even in pretty remote areas, someone with a welding torch may be close to help with repairs if they are needed.


So, all cruisers cruise in steel boats? No ...