Cruising without anchoring?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Sorry to stray off-topic, but if one is going to burnish one's credentials by citing dramatic tidal ranges and currents, Boston inner harbor just doesn't cut it. I have to question whether you've ever anchored there, or anywhere that was a real challenge. From Boston, take a quick run up to Newburyport or Portsmouth if you want to see reversing tidal currents. Head Down East for some real tide ranges. Anchor for a while in those places, then come back and tell us what a salty sailor you are.

The guys not trying to burnish anything for Pete:s sake! He's asking a straightforward question and trying to get someone to actually answer it instead of questioning his anchoring skills or tell him he shouldn't be planning on staying at marinas because you apparently know his family better than him. Seriously people, just help the guy out or not. This type of answer is both unwelcoming, unfriendly, and uncalled for.

I can tell you that at least in the Abacos there is a marina in almost every little cay. It will just be a place to tie up in many cases, but that's probably fine as long as that's what you're looking for.

[wingssail]

What you are talking about is being frequently moving liveaboards rather than being active cruisers. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of people do it and never go anywhere and love it. The cruising lifestyle allows for many approaches; some anchor out always, some live in marinas always, some move, some never do. It's all good, you can choose whatever suits you.

Your plan of moving from marina to marina makes living aboard more fun and interesting. With cruising guides and some research you can pick places with the amenities you need, and you are FREE! You can stay where you like it as long as you like or move away quickly if you don't. Being based in a marina for a couple of months makes land travel easier, you can rent a car and see all the sights, even stay overnight in a lodge or resort somewhere and not worry about your boat.

I have not cruised the east coast or Bahamas but I have cruised around the world. Apparently it is not so easy in the Bahamas. But if you steer clear of the less developed countries then nice, affordable marinas are easily found.

Actually, we've done what you are proposing, only on a wider scale, for 34 years. We moved from marina to marina all the way around the world, with some periods of cruising in remote places where there were no marinas, (like Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, most of the Northern Pacific Islands, the San Blas of Panama, and other places) but we could have easily bypassed these places and sailed directly to the next country with a town and a marina.

There are always stores, usually great stores, nearby. There are always people doing laundry, cheaply, who serve marina customers, there has always been a way to get good Internet connections and believe me, that is a focus of mine, so I know. There are always restaurants, often many of them.

AND, you will learn how to track "the kid boats". Since you have a 4 year old daughter she will want to meet other kids on boats in the marina. You will get to know which boats have kids and you will love to join them.

There are also the people you will meet and socialize with who are living in the marina. They will become your best friends. You will come to love the marina life, the slow approach to cruising, and you and your family may want to do it forever. Many do.

[Creedence]

Originally Posted by wingssail

What you are talking about is being frequently moving liveaboards rather than being active cruisers. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of people do it and never go anywhere and love it. The cruising lifestyle allows for many approaches; some anchor out always, some live in marinas always, some move, some never do. It's all good, you can choose whatever suits you.

Your plan of moving from marina to marina makes living aboard more fun and interesting. With cruising guides and some research you can pick places with the amenities you need, and you are FREE! You can stay where you like it as long as you like or move away quickly if you don't. Being based in a marina for a couple of months makes land travel easier, you can rent a car and see all the sights, even stay overnight in a lodge or resort somewhere and not worry about your boat.

I have not cruised the east coast or Bahamas but I have cruised around the world. Apparently it is not so easy in the Bahamas. But if you steer clear of the less developed countries then nice, affordable marinas are easily found.

Actually, we've done what you are proposing, only on a wider scale, for 34 years. We moved from marina to marina all the way around the world, with some periods of cruising in remote places where there were no marinas, (like Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, most of the Northern Pacific Islands, the San Blas of Panama, and other places) but we could have easily bypassed these places and sailed directly to the next country with a town and a marina.

There are always stores, usually great stores, nearby. There are always people doing laundry, cheaply, who serve marina customers, there has always been a way to get good Internet connections and believe me, that is a focus of mine, so I know. There are always restaurants, often many of them.

AND, you will learn how to track "the kid boats". Since you have a 4 year old daughter she will want to meet other kids on boats in the marina. You will get to know which boats have kids and you will love to join them.

There are also the people you will meet and socialize with who are living in the marina. They will become your best friends. You will come to love the marina life, the slow approach to cruising, and you and your family may want to do it forever. Many do.

I like that distinction; moving liveaboards! That's exactly what I'm thinking we'd be, and if I could make it for for 34 years, believe me I'd do it!! It's really a matter of figuring out how to get what bit of the cruising life I can while I can, and while still satisfying all my other life requirements. I wish I was in a position to cut the dock lines and truly set ourselves free, but some sort of compromise if necessary for my particular situation (both driven by family and financial obligations)

I appreciate your feedback, especially, again as someone who's lived it and done it!!

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Creedence

(The near 20’ tidal range and accompanying water velocity in Boston’s inner harbor makes for some really interesting anchoring experiences if not done properly!).

This is more intended to get some feedback on region-specific marina living. Are the marina’s plentiful enough for this concept, are they REASONABLE enough to dependably support monthlong stays, are there enough on the islands belonging to a range of countries to allow for a 2 year itinerary without running into visa limitations.

And beyond that, some specific experiences (name names if you feel like it) along with some examples of real-world pricing would be great!

So to clarify my OP, this is less of a “can it be accomplished” question, and much more a “how feasible is this, and what are some unique considerations” type of discussion.

living right at the Boston harbor waterfront, I can comment that the average tide here is ~12' and the max tide, ever, was about 15'.

Not sure if and when you have anchored in Boston, but as long as I can remember from my 22 years here, you are not allowed to anchor anywhere within the 3nm+ long harbor. There are, however, at least six marinas right in the harbor.

As for your original question. Guess you refer to the West Indies, Caribbeans, the Bahamas and US southeast? - Docking was always my preference and there are good marinas in many islands, so you can definitely plan on long stays. The rates for my 43' cruiser were between $300/month (Martinique), $600-800/month in the West Indies (St Lucia and south), $1500-1800 in St Maarten, around $1,000 in PR and DR and again $1300-1800 in T&C and the Bahamas.

However, we couldn't always get to a marina due to planning, distances or points of interest in islands without any marina, so anchored for 2-5 days in different areas and sailed overnight in between when the plan required that.

[dsteinwny]

Parts of the Grenadines are moderately well equipped for your proposed lifestyle. What is the family's feelings about mooring balls in well protected areas? Or is dining by dingy off the menu?

[thinwater]

I recall a great feeling of liberation when we added kayaks in addition to the dinghy. This meant mom and dad, and the kids, no longer had to move as a unit. People could come and go. Easy on a multihull.


That cured one of the inconveniences of living on the hook. But there are others. Our preference depended more on the location than the money.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

OK, as the Marriage and Family Therapist/Relationship Coach in the room here I'd like to address your family dynamic with the following thoughts for you-............
..............................................


As the Skipper, your family is crew as well as family. You want them to be happy and most likely will bend over backwards to make that happen, as evidenced by your post here. They need to choose to trust you on that, and negotiating a cruising plan so they know what to expect and how things will work is a big start.

I say "choose" to trust you because there are times you have to make a judgment call that will be contrary to what your wife or daughter wants. Rather than make that a setup for a power struggle and arguing/whining/resentment, if you negotiate this and they understand that they can't always get what they want and that they agreed to choose to trust you, you have the potential for being a strong TEAM, and there is nothing sweeter than being a functional team with the ones you love (and nothing more miserable than being a dysfunctional team in a situation you can't change, like being on a boat thousands of miles from home).

Of course there's much more, but that seems like a good start and feel free to reach out if you need ideas/strategies as you already have.

Many of those here have cruised ("really" cruised) much more than I have. But this advice ^^^ is very important. My one extended cruise was sailing (motoring) up from SF to BC with my then 28 year old son. While he liked boating, he isn't a sailor. I think he thought our trip up was a tour of "best restaurants of the left coast."

My thought process was completely different on this cruise than day sails and local cruising out of SF, because there simply cannot be two skippers on one boat. Never, Ever. And your decision as skipper overrules every want that the rest of your family could ever come up with. There is that important distinction between wants and needs.

And be very careful of trying to pull "a delicate balance." You don't want to ever put yourself into a position of having to explain your decisions to two folks who don't have your responsibility or understanding of the same. Of course, I'm not advocating Captain Bligh techniques, but as time goes by they should, and we all hope they will, learn more about boating and that it's not all marina hopping, it's so much more.

In my trip, the entire venture was planned on just that: marina hopping and avoiding wind, since we were coming UP the coast. We were successful. But as many times as I tried to engage my son in the planning and mathematics for fuel and bar crossings, he just wasn't into it. He was a great crew mate, good cook, rotten at cleaning up, and played a nice guitar.


Now that we're here, he loves to anchor out! Go figger...


The truly unique thing that good skippers have & do is thinking one step ahead and determining fall-backs and what-ifs. Some crews "get it" and I hope yours will learn to do so. With your help, no doubt.

Things will evolve as you spend time together onboard. We all trust that things will work out very, very well for you and yours. Have fun, safe journey.

[Creedence]

Originally Posted by DeValency

living right at the Boston harbor waterfront, I can comment that the average tide here is ~12' and the max tide, ever, was about 15'.

Not sure if and when you have anchored in Boston, but as long as I can remember from my 22 years here, you are not allowed to anchor anywhere within the 3nm+ long harbor. There are, however, at least six marinas right in the harbor.

As for your original question. Guess you refer to the West Indies, Caribbeans, the Bahamas and US southeast? - Docking was always my preference and there are good marinas in many islands, so you can definitely plan on long stays. The rates for my 43' cruiser were between $300/month (Martinique), $600-800/month in the West Indies (St Lucia and south), $1500-1800 in St Maarten, around $1,000 in PR and DR and again $1300-1800 in T&C and the Bahamas.

However, we couldn't always get to a marina due to planning, distances or points of interest in islands without any marina, so anchored for 2-5 days in different areas and sailed overnight in between when the plan required that.

Not to be a pedant, but if we’re here to split hairs “12’ falls within the range of the better part of 20’ “. Again, I didn’t throw that crumb out so we could go all keyboard warrior on it. I acknowledge in the couple/few years I was a live aboard in Charlestown Marina, I failed to break out a sounding lead as the tide ebbed and flowed.

Having said that, I really do appreciate your insight with the following part of your post. Very valuable input, and I especially appreciate the real-world dollar amounts you provided!

[waynetmazan]

There is a saying used in the Caribbean.... Don't worry... Be happy.

[Pizzazz]

You are overthinking it. Do equip your boat as much as you can, incl. watermaker, washing machine and an air conditioner. Be prepared to anchor. Then try to do different things. Some days you may anchor. Other days you may stay at the marina in a guest slip. And yet other days you can drop off your family, anchor then go back to shore and stay in a nice hotel for a few days. Everyone will be happy and you will not be stuck at the boat 24/7.

[contrail]

I read the whole thread so as to try not to repeat, and there is one thing that has not been mentioned. The fact that you will be doing what is known as the Thorny Path. In a nutshell, you will be more or less going against strong winds and currents all the way to around Antigua. Which is over 1100 miles. That means that you will either need to take it in short hops, usually starting before dawn and reaching your destination by mid to late morning (when the wind really picks up), or your crew will need to be skilled and happy about going to windward in some really challenging conditions, at least some of the time. IF you play your weather really well, it is possible to avoid these conditions (I have gotten as far as Puerto Rico with no wind forward of the beam, once), but to do so you have to make long hops when the opportunity arises. So, you need to be content with either long, multiple day hops, including overnight, or you will need to take short hops. And that is where you get stuck with your marina question. The further you get south in the Bahamas, the fewer and farther between decent marinas you will be. And going from there (with the exception of the Turks and Caicos), you will be in a marina desert across the north coast of the DR (to be fair, there are a couple) and even some places in Puerto Rico. When you get to the BVI, you will then have an often rugged non-stop of 80 miles to St. Maarten, and you still have some more legs till you begin to head south (not into the wind). Marinas
in Guadeloupe will not be convenient, there are none in Dominica, and then you will be more or less OK till the northern end of St. Vincent. It will be spotty through the Grenadines. I hope this is of some use. To summarize, I would say that, overall, you could find a dozen places to "liveaboard", but several stretches that are longish or worse, getting between them. And more than half of the journey will be upwind. So, your crew will have to put up with either overnight sailing, or anchoring for, in some cases, several days in a row. The problems with your plans are 1) the weather, 2) you cannot escape anchoring, and more than a few times and 3) you will need to sail overnight.



I am not being negative here. It's a reality of cruising the Caribbean. Make sure the crew knows this. And, the ideal of doing whatever it takes to transfer the adventure to the Med makes a whole lot of sense, to me. Otherwise, somewhere along the trek from Florida to the Northeast corner of the Caribbean, your crew will either have to learn to like "real" cruising, or they will bail and the cruise will end. Think very carefully on this. Another alternative would be for the crew to head home after, say, Georgetown, in the Bahamas, and rejoin you in Puerto Rico. You would find crew for the intervening legs. Then, they could be with you, and would have a grand time, from Puerto Rico through the USVI and the BVI. From there you fly them to Antigua, and find crew to help you get the boat there. That's about a 170 mile hop. From there, they stay with you and suck it up for a few anchorages on the way South. That would work.

[Creedence]

Originally Posted by contrail

I read the whole thread so as to try not to repeat, and there is one thing that has not been mentioned. The fact that you will be doing what is known as the Thorny Path. In a nutshell, you will be more or less going against strong winds and currents all the way to around Antigua. Which is over 1100 miles. That means that you will either need to take it in short hops, usually starting before dawn and reaching your destination by mid to late morning (when the wind really picks up), or your crew will need to be skilled and happy about going to windward in some really challenging conditions, at least some of the time. IF you play your weather really well, it is possible to avoid these conditions (I have gotten as far as Puerto Rico with no wind forward of the beam, once), but to do so you have to make long hops when the opportunity arises. So, you need to be content with either long, multiple day hops, including overnight, or you will need to take short hops. And that is where you get stuck with your marina question. The further you get south in the Bahamas, the fewer and farther between decent marinas you will be. And going from there (with the exception of the Turks and Caicos), you will be in a marina desert across the north coast of the DR (to be fair, there are a couple) and even some places in Puerto Rico. When you get to the BVI, you will then have an often rugged non-stop of 80 miles to St. Maarten, and you still have some more legs till you begin to head south (not into the wind). Marinas
in Guadeloupe will not be convenient, there are none in Dominica, and then you will be more or less OK till the northern end of St. Vincent. It will be spotty through the Grenadines. I hope this is of some use. To summarize, I would say that, overall, you could find a dozen places to "liveaboard", but several stretches that are longish or worse, getting between them. And more than half of the journey will be upwind. So, your crew will have to put up with either overnight sailing, or anchoring for, in some cases, several days in a row. The problems with your plans are 1) the weather, 2) you cannot escape anchoring, and more than a few times and 3) you will need to sail overnight.



I am not being negative here. It's a reality of cruising the Caribbean. Make sure the crew knows this. And, the ideal of doing whatever it takes to transfer the adventure to the Med makes a whole lot of sense, to me. Otherwise, somewhere along the trek from Florida to the Northeast corner of the Caribbean, your crew will either have to learn to like "real" cruising, or they will bail and the cruise will end. Think very carefully on this. Another alternative would be for the crew to head home after, say, Georgetown, in the Bahamas, and rejoin you in Puerto Rico. You would find crew for the intervening legs. Then, they could be with you, and would have a grand time, from Puerto Rico through the USVI and the BVI. From there you fly them to Antigua, and find crew to help you get the boat there. That's about a 170 mile hop. From there, they stay with you and suck it up for a few anchorages on the way South. That would work.

Please don’t feel like you’re coming across negative. This is exactly the understanding of limitations and nuances of my proposed itinerary I’m hoping to get. I haven’t heard anything that would be a show stopper per se, but certainly things that can be better mitigated to insulate the family from the challenges.

Great post, thank you so much!

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Creedence

Please don’t feel like you’re coming across negative. This is exactly the understanding of limitations and nuances of my proposed itinerary I’m hoping to get. I haven’t heard anything that would be a show stopper per se, but certainly things that can be better mitigated to insulate the family from the challenges.

Great post, thank you so much!

Creedence, you are correct in appreciating the input from contrail.

I don't understand, however, your inclusion of: "...but certainly things that can be better mitigated to insulate the family from the challenges."

I haven't gotten the feeling from your replies to date and your excellent presentation in your OP, that you intended to insulate your family at all. It seems you have a healthy attitude and are willing to learn. I appreciate your input so far and it seems to me that you think they do too.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the "insulate" part. There will be challenges, what are you insulating them from? Thanks.

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by Creedence

I know this goes against the accepted practice and I know the accepted practice is the accepted practice for good reasons. This isn’t intended to spark an anchoring vs marinas debate, but I was hoping to get some feedback on the feasibility of long-ish term cruising by hopping from one month-long slip rental to the next for a 1-2 year period in the Bahamas and Caribbean.

I’m acutely aware of the financial implications. I just got a datapoint recently putting one particular marina down there at about $2000 per month for a 30 day minimum (I’m 43’ LOA). Is that figure generally representative of what I might find throughout the region?

Are there enough appropriate facilities to permit this type of cruising plan? By appropriate, I mean are there enough marinas that approximate those found on the east coast of the US scattered around sufficiently to allow me month-long stays without risk of overstaying a visa? To expand on that question (over-simplifying just to demonstrate the concept), if the BVI has the only appropriate marinas, I could hop to a few of them but I would run into a visa issue). As cruisers, we’d be looking for marinas that offer a good live aboard experience (so I’d like to omit mega yacht facilities, commercial docks, etc).

Any other thoughts, considerations, or data points from anyone who may have completed an itinerary like this, or who may have at least done a month in a Caribbean marina as a live aboard?

Thanks as always for the input, and I look forward to the discussion.

I've cruised the Caribbean on and off (Windwards & Leewards) since 1974, and this season I've been between the USVIs and Grenada since November 2019.

What you propose is generally possible - with a few exceptions each island has a "good enough" marina to do what you want. Doubtless some will disappoint while some will excel.

USVI's, BVI's, St. Maarten, St. Kitts, Antigua, Guadeloupe & Martinique (slightly marginal on pleasantness), St. Lucia, Canouan, and Grenada is the short list of where you'll find more US-like marinas where you could actually enjoy a month.

If you're serious about planning the trip go and buy Chris Doyle's guides and study them - sometimes out of date, naturally, but generally accurate.

So all that said the devil is in the details. Marinas tend to be in sheltered spots and thus very hot in the tropics - so you will need to sit below with the aircon on to be comfortable. I can think of only a few with full resort facilities - pool, gym, etc, etc. Sometimes the electricity will go off, or you'll have a brownout, or it will be the wrong flavor for your boat unless it's been deliberately set up for universal access. Sometimes the water will taste terrible. Sometimes it will be surgey, and your boat will jerk on her mooring lines. Caribbean restaurants outside the spots that are popular with superyachts and vacationing urbanites are OK, but kinda basic. Laundry facilities are generally basic but OK, especially if you're in a place with active bareboat charter operations - they need quick and good laundry. Shopping can be very hit or miss, both for food and for everything else - again the closer you are to superyacht hangouts and urbanite vacation hotspots the better (or French islands for food!). In these cases "better" means more like living in a house in the US.

Internet access is its own topic. Sometimes it will be OK, often not. If you want 24/7 Netflix it's not going to work. If you just want ordinary email and web browsing, install a good cellular system on your boat and buy local SIM cards. You can even stream some video....though there are no unlimited data plans from the providers here.

It sounds like your wife doesn't want to go boat camping. It's not clear from your posts exactly which parts she dislikes. But as a gentle suggestion, have you considered a different boat? A really good generator install these days is pretty quiet - then you have air conditioning and watermaking and a washer/dryer and lots of showers and lots of electricity. No more camping. And the right boat can carry a real tender, a 12-14' RIB with a 20-30HP electric start motor with seats and a steering wheel and you stay dry underway (unless it's raining!). Look for example at a Lagoon 450 - which are pretty thick on the water down here - compared to your boat it's way more like living in a modern urban apartment which just happens to be floating in beautiful turquoise water. Suggestion - go charter one of those, or a Moorings 4800 for a little step up, for a week and see how different that experience is. Make sure to go with a high end charter company and their premium boats so you get all the equipment. These boats are way more comfortable platforms to live on than a 43' monohull with narrow ends....

I speak from experience as I've spent over 13 years total actively cruising monohulls from 32' - 87', and my 57' cat is way better than all of them except the 75'+ monohulls.

Hope this helps..good luck!

[Capdave360]

Originally Posted by contrail

I read the whole thread so as to try not to repeat, and there is one thing that has not been mentioned. The fact that you will be doing what is known as the Thorny Path. In a nutshell, you will be more or less going against strong winds and currents all the way to around Antigua. Which is over 1100 miles. That means that you will either need to take it in short hops, usually starting before dawn and reaching your destination by mid to late morning (when the wind really picks up), or your crew will need to be skilled and happy about going to windward in some really challenging conditions, at least some of the time. IF you play your weather really well, it is possible to avoid these conditions (I have gotten as far as Puerto Rico with no wind forward of the beam, once), but to do so you have to make long hops when the opportunity arises. So, you need to be content with either long, multiple day hops, including overnight, or you will need to take short hops. And that is where you get stuck with your marina question. The further you get south in the Bahamas, the fewer and farther between decent marinas you will be. And going from there (with the exception of the Turks and Caicos), you will be in a marina desert across the north coast of the DR (to be fair, there are a couple) and even some places in Puerto Rico. When you get to the BVI, you will then have an often rugged non-stop of 80 miles to St. Maarten, and you still have some more legs till you begin to head south (not into the wind). Marinas
in Guadeloupe will not be convenient, there are none in Dominica, and then you will be more or less OK till the northern end of St. Vincent. It will be spotty through the Grenadines. I hope this is of some use. To summarize, I would say that, overall, you could find a dozen places to "liveaboard", but several stretches that are longish or worse, getting between them. And more than half of the journey will be upwind. So, your crew will have to put up with either overnight sailing, or anchoring for, in some cases, several days in a row. The problems with your plans are 1) the weather, 2) you cannot escape anchoring, and more than a few times and 3) you will need to sail overnight.



I am not being negative here. It's a reality of cruising the Caribbean. Make sure the crew knows this. And, the ideal of doing whatever it takes to transfer the adventure to the Med makes a whole lot of sense, to me. Otherwise, somewhere along the trek from Florida to the Northeast corner of the Caribbean, your crew will either have to learn to like "real" cruising, or they will bail and the cruise will end. Think very carefully on this. Another alternative would be for the crew to head home after, say, Georgetown, in the Bahamas, and rejoin you in Puerto Rico. You would find crew for the intervening legs. Then, they could be with you, and would have a grand time, from Puerto Rico through the USVI and the BVI. From there you fly them to Antigua, and find crew to help you get the boat there. That's about a 170 mile hop. From there, they stay with you and suck it up for a few anchorages on the way South. That would work.

This is all spot on. If you really want to make this work within the boundaries you've described, you have to be ready willing and able to put your wife and daughter on a plane (or sometimes a big commercial ferry) and borrow or rent crew to move the boat to the next suitable location.

My wife has a standing offer for an airplane ticket, anytime, anywhere, no questions asked, no pressure. I'd way rather she use it if she's in the slightest doubt. She hasn't used it yet.....