Tips for Greece

[yeloya]

First of all talking about Greece, we should distinguish the difference between the islands and the mainland..The people on the islands have got always some privilege, even reduced tax levels officially, government subsidized fuel, transport, etc. Therefore, at the beginning of the crisis, they were barely impacted. But now the things are changing rapidly..
As far as crusing is concern, my expectations are:

-even less control and hassle when check in /out,(they are running out of people)
-more chaos in the ports and generally in public transports (same reason + ever increasing strikes)
-overall prices to go down (less puchasing power of locals)
-(unfortunately) less tourists and cruisers to avoid the mess..

It's pitty but it seems like there is no way out for Greece; for so many years they've spent the money they didn't earn. EU is equally responsable for all what happened and Merkel/Sarkozy will pay the bill in the first elections to come for pouring in the money of their tax payers into Greece.

Cheers

Yeloya

[Palarran]

Thank you for your thoughts.

I'm meeting with some friends this week to discuss their family joining us next year. What I'm going to suggest is that they purchase tickets to London for the time frame we are looking at. Then they can use EasyJet to get wherever we actually are.

For my family, all we need is diesel and food. It's my friends and their travel plans that worry me. I would think the islands will be somewhat sheltered from strikes and any potential violence that may erupt.

One option I have is to reverse my trip. We had planned to cruise Croatia, Italy, and France in our second year (2013). Maybe I should do those areas first, see what develops, then head to Greece in 2013. It's hard to visualize this change after spending two years planning on Greece first, then the others.

Any opinions?

[careka]

Well, Greece will have problems, but that will also make prices going down,
They have to keep this Turist machine going, they cant afford not to.
and there will be food and fuel. Planes, out and in, and ferrys, can and will be delayed due to strikes.
beside from that, Greece is nice. Go for it.
And if it turns out to be bad, its only a few days of sailing to get over to Italy, Croatia.

[Capitain Mike]

Originally Posted by careka

Well, Greece will have problems, but that will also make prices going down,
They have to keep this Turist machine going, they cant afford not to.
and there will be food and fuel. Planes, out and in, and ferrys, can and will be delayed due to strikes.
beside from that, Greece is nice. Go for it.
And if it turns out to be bad, its only a few days of sailing to get over to Italy, Croatia.

Go for It Greece is Great!!!
I know I live here

[Palarran]

If you have Google Earth installed on your computer and are interested in seeing what I have come up with for a route, here it is. You can click on the expanding arrows to see more information and places. I'd appreciate any feedback you all may have. This file will store in your temporary places so it is easy to delete and won't conflict with any of your existing routes.

My plan is to leave St. Martin on the 3rd week of April, be at the Azores 21 days later, spend a week there, then 1 week to Gibraltar. That should put me at the Rock around June 1st.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Thank you for your thoughts.

I'm meeting with some friends this week to discuss their family joining us next year. What I'm going to suggest is that they purchase tickets to London for the time frame we are looking at. Then they can use EasyJet to get wherever we actually are.

For my family, all we need is diesel and food. It's my friends and their travel plans that worry me. I would think the islands will be somewhat sheltered from strikes and any potential violence that may erupt.

One option I have is to reverse my trip. We had planned to cruise Croatia, Italy, and France in our second year (2013). Maybe I should do those areas first, see what develops, then head to Greece in 2013. It's hard to visualize this change after spending two years planning on Greece first, then the others.

Any opinions?

To make or change plans on account of half assed rumours or even the potential of the odd strike is ridiculous. Greece is a orderly stable society. Minor industrial action occurs all over Europe all the time. ( see France and UK). Ignore it

As to ways of getting there. Also checks routes through Germany and France. Both have excellent connections to Greece.

Go an enjoy it , it's a great place to visit.
Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by yeloya

First of all talking about Greece, we should distinguish the difference between the islands and the mainland..The people on the islands have got always some privilege, even reduced tax levels officially, government subsidized fuel, transport, etc. Therefore, at the beginning of the crisis, they were barely impacted. But now the things are changing rapidly..
As far as crusing is concern, my expectations are:

-even less control and hassle when check in /out,(they are running out of people)
-more chaos in the ports and generally in public transports (same reason + ever increasing strikes)
-overall prices to go down (less puchasing power of locals)
-(unfortunately) less tourists and cruisers to avoid the mess..

It's pitty but it seems like there is no way out for Greece; for so many years they've spent the money they didn't earn. EU is equally responsable for all what happened and Merkel/Sarkozy will pay the bill in the first elections to come for pouring in the money of their tax payers into Greece.

Cheers

Yeloya

I beleive your reading of the situation is incorrect. Greece will remain a basically stable country where the rule of law applies

Secondly. All western countries have spent more then they earned. The US being up there with the rest of them. Greece is just the first correction.

I also do not think that the voters of Germany or France will react in the way you think. Firstly both France and Germany have their own problems and will be pouring money into their own banks soon enough. Secondly it's the taxpayers of Greece that will pay the most. Thirdly the citizens of France and Germany will regard themselves as lucky if all that is required is a few couple of 100 billion euros to solve this mess.

Dave

[Frederik V]

Originally Posted by Palarran

If you have Google Earth installed on your computer and are interested in seeing what I have come up with for a route, here it is. You can click on the expanding arrows to see more information and places. I'd appreciate any feedback you all may have. This file will store in your temporary places so it is easy to delete and won't conflict with any of your existing routes.

My plan is to leave St. Martin on the 3rd week of April, be at the Azores 21 days later, spend a week there, then 1 week to Gibraltar. That should put me at the Rock around June 1st.

I was in a number of places in the Mediterranean. To some of the places I have been often. So, these are my "musts" :

Mallorca : Isle of Cabrera (natural reserve : but you have to ask a permission to anchor a few weeks in advance)
Palma is worth a visit.

Marseille : Avoid this place ! A big dirty (and dangerous) city. Impossible to find a place in the harbour anyway and they will send you far outside to Le Frioul.

Cassis : a nice very small place but you might have difficulties to find a place. Try to be there before noon. Pay yourself a visit to the "Calanque d'en Vau et port Miou". You can anchor in front of the rock at the end, but it is very deep anchoring. (I anchored several times behind the rock, where it is forbidden, a very good place to spend the night. You can stay there untill someone sends you away in the early morning ... When the last boat with tourists has gone, you'll be the only ones there)

Between Cassis and the "iles de lérin", there is nothing interesting.

Isle of Porquerolles : in the harbour. Have dinner in Le Mas du Langoustier on top of the island (they will get and bring you back to the harbour). You can also anchor in the well sheltered Bay du Langoustier (north side), close to the restaurant. Also secure with the Mistral blowing.

For boat repair Port Hyères is a good place. Visit also the village of Hyères.

Port Cros : Nice Idyllic harbour. Make a walk to the bay of Port Man (where you can also anchor, sheltered of the Mistral)

(Other nice place = Le Lavandou)

St Tropez : a must. Try to find a place next to the Capitainerie (=harbour master) and spend a day or 2 there. If no place, anchor in the Bay des Cannebiers (well sheltered) and don't leave the bay of St Tropez without visiting Port-Grimaud. You will find a place there at the capiatinerie at the entrance, but ask if they can give you a place next to the church (if not, you can go to Port de Cogolin, it is just next to Pt Grimaud, it is pretty to see, plenty of space, but there is nothing to see or to do in that harbour.
The visit of Pt Grimaud is also a must (it's a little bit like Venice).

In july and august it is interesting to make a walk in the evening from Port Fréjus to St Raphael along the coast. It is 3 km with plenty of restaurants and things you can buy.

Cannes : Try to find a place in the harbour. Not easy ! You will find a place in La Napoule and go with the taxi to Cannes. During the day, stay between the well sheltered Islands of st marguerite and st honorat just in front of Cannes, and make a walk around both islands.

Golf Juan : not interesting

Antibes : only if you have time.

Nice : There are better places to visit (the visit of the "old town" takes only 5 minutes, for the rest it is a big dirty city)

Monaco : Try every harbour. Starting with cap d'ail, then Fontvieille (the best : very nice under the Monaco Rock), then port Hercule. Hopefully you will find a place.
in general, finding a place in the harbour is difficult in the south of france, espiecially for the size of your boat. The places are also very expensive, but it is often worth.
Especially from 15th June try to be at the harbour not later then 1 pm. You can not make a reservation.
If you want to go for dinner in a top restaurant in a very pleasant surrounding, go to the Chèvre d'Or in Eze ... Check the prices first ...

Noth of Italy, I don't know, but Portofino and Rapallo are well known places.

Corsica :
St Florent : peacefull place
Calvi : not very interesting to my opinion
Sail very close along the coast of Scandola (natural reserve)
You can anchor further in Girolata. A nice peacefull spot (do not do that with a Mistral warning)

Ajaccio : worth a visit - Provisions to buy here.

Propriano : a waste of time

Bonifacio : a must, spectacular entrance. Not easy to find a place. Do not go to the inviting right where you find an easy place (just before the shelterd places start). Your ruther will touch and you might be smached against the wall ... At the left side of the entrance they put sometimes a temporary floating harbour, this is OK.

Lavezzi Islands : anchor in the first island south of Bonifacio. Very special and peaceful place with strange rocks. Silence guaranteed and well sheltered.
If you don't stay there for the night than at least make a stop there and have a look.

La Maddalena is not very interesting, no much chance to find a place in the small harbour.
Porto Cervo : the harbour of the jet set - a big name, but that' all, really nothing to see except mega yachts.

Well that's all, I 've sent earlier my opinion about sailing in Croatia.

I hope this was helpful, and hope my english was not too bad ...

Frederik

[Capitain Mike]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I beleive your reading of the situation is incorrect. Greece will remain a basically stable country where the rule of law applies

Secondly. All western countries have spent more then they earned. The US being up there with the rest of them. Greece is just the first correction.

I also do not think that the voters of Germany or France will react in the way you think. Firstly both France and Germany have their own problems and will be pouring money into their own banks soon enough. Secondly it's the taxpayers of Greece that will pay the most. Thirdly the citizens of France and Germany will regard themselves as lucky if all that is required is a few couple of 100 billion euros to solve this mess.

Dave

You are absolutely correct unless you live here as I do, you don't really understand what is happening with the people etc

[Capitain Mike]

Originally Posted by Frederik V

I was in a number of places in the Mediterranean. To some of the places I have been often. So, these are my "musts" :

Mallorca : Isle of Cabrera (natural reserve : but you have to ask a permission to anchor a few weeks in advance)
Palma is worth a visit.

Marseille : Avoid this place ! A big dirty (and dangerous) city. Impossible to find a place in the harbour anyway and they will send you far outside to Le Frioul.

Cassis : a nice very small place but you might have difficulties to find a place. Try to be there before noon. Pay yourself a visit to the "Calanque d'en Vau et port Miou". You can anchor in front of the rock at the end, but it is very deep anchoring. (I anchored several times behind the rock, where it is forbidden, a very good place to spend the night. You can stay there untill someone sends you away in the early morning ... When the last boat with tourists has gone, you'll be the only ones there)

Between Cassis and the "iles de lérin", there is nothing interesting.

Isle of Porquerolles : in the harbour. Have dinner in Le Mas du Langoustier on top of the island (they will get and bring you back to the harbour). You can also anchor in the well sheltered Bay du Langoustier (north side), close to the restaurant. Also secure with the Mistral blowing.

For boat repair Port Hyères is a good place. Visit also the village of Hyères.

Port Cros : Nice Idyllic harbour. Make a walk to the bay of Port Man (where you can also anchor, sheltered of the Mistral)

(Other nice place = Le Lavandou)

St Tropez : a must. Try to find a place next to the Capitainerie (=harbour master) and spend a day or 2 there. If no place, anchor in the Bay des Cannebiers (well sheltered) and don't leave the bay of St Tropez without visiting Port-Grimaud. You will find a place there at the capiatinerie at the entrance, but ask if they can give you a place next to the church (if not, you can go to Port de Cogolin, it is just next to Pt Grimaud, it is pretty to see, plenty of space, but there is nothing to see or to do in that harbour.
The visit of Pt Grimaud is also a must (it's a little bit like Venice).

In july and august it is interesting to make a walk in the evening from Port Fréjus to St Raphael along the coast. It is 3 km with plenty of restaurants and things you can buy.

Cannes : Try to find a place in the harbour. Not easy ! You will find a place in La Napoule and go with the taxi to Cannes. During the day, stay between the well sheltered Islands of st marguerite and st honorat just in front of Cannes, and make a walk around both islands.

Golf Juan : not interesting

Antibes : only if you have time.

Nice : There are better places to visit (the visit of the "old town" takes only 5 minutes, for the rest it is a big dirty city)

Monaco : Try every harbour. Starting with cap d'ail, then Fontvieille (the best : very nice under the Monaco Rock), then port Hercule. Hopefully you will find a place.
in general, finding a place in the harbour is difficult in the south of france, espiecially for the size of your boat. The places are also very expensive, but it is often worth.
Especially from 15th June try to be at the harbour not later then 1 pm. You can not make a reservation.
If you want to go for dinner in a top restaurant in a very pleasant surrounding, go to the Chèvre d'Or in Eze ... Check the prices first ...

Noth of Italy, I don't know, but Portofino and Rapallo are well known places.

Corsica :
St Florent : peacefull place
Calvi : not very interesting to my opinion
Sail very close along the coast of Scandola (natural reserve)
You can anchor further in Girolata. A nice peacefull spot (do not do that with a Mistral warning)

Ajaccio : worth a visit - Provisions to buy here.

Propriano : a waste of time

Bonifacio : a must, spectacular entrance. Not easy to find a place. Do not go to the inviting right where you find an easy place (just before the shelterd places start). Your ruther will touch and you might be smached against the wall ... At the left side of the entrance they put sometimes a temporary floating harbour, this is OK.

Lavezzi Islands : anchor in the first island south of Bonifacio. Very special and peaceful place with strange rocks. Silence guaranteed and well sheltered.
If you don't stay there for the night than at least make a stop there and have a look.

La Maddalena is not very interesting, no much chance to find a place in the small harbour.
Porto Cervo : the harbour of the jet set - a big name, but that' all, really nothing to see except mega yachts.

Well that's all, I 've sent earlier my opinion about sailing in Croatia.

I hope this was helpful, and hope my english was not too bad ...

Frederik

That is all the west did you not go anywhere East Med???

[Capitain Mike]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I beleive your reading of the situation is incorrect. Greece will remain a basically stable country where the rule of law applies

Secondly. All western countries have spent more then they earned. The US being up there with the rest of them. Greece is just the first correction.

I also do not think that the voters of Germany or France will react in the way you think. Firstly both France and Germany have their own problems and will be pouring money into their own banks soon enough. Secondly it's the taxpayers of Greece that will pay the most. Thirdly the citizens of France and Germany will regard themselves as lucky if all that is required is a few couple of 100 billion euros to solve this mess.

Dave

Yes Dave You are absolutely correct unless you live here as I do, you don't really understand what is happening with the people etc. Goboatingnow seems to know nothing very much at all about Greece Mainland and The islands.
I have lived here on an Island a long way from Athens since January 2006. There is less work (Regulated by the tourist season) lower pay because the polish,Albanians Serbs Bulgaria Indians Pakistanis etc etc will all accept less than the minimum wage and no health payments to IKa. Transport on the far islands finishes when the tourist season ends. On this Island the season is 3 months. So no buses coaches etc 9 months of the year Tax he has to be joking its more expensive for your daily requirements to live here than Athens so obviously you pay more tax. Medical service here now there are no tourist is practically zilch. there are no capabilities for emergencies. I could go on but I wont. I am 70 have ill health but refuse to live in the UK because of its namby pandy attitude (trying to be politically correct)to the people because of all the immigrants legal and illegal because of the crime dirt fillth killings muggings bad education you cant have a Christmas tree and call it a Christmas tree because you might offend someone who is not Christian no Happy Christmas now. It has to be Happy festivities. Now England Sucks its not the England I knew 60 years ago. English men (Not British men) (they even took that away) beware you are now an Ethnic minority).

I don't expect this will be put in the thread.

Someone somewhere will find something offensive racial abusive or off topic so if it gets in I will be surprised it will more than likely be removed.

[Capitain Mike]

Originally Posted by Palarran

If you have Google Earth installed on your computer and are interested in seeing what I have come up with for a route, here it is. You can click on the expanding arrows to see more information and places. I'd appreciate any feedback you all may have. This file will store in your temporary places so it is easy to delete and won't conflict with any of your existing routes.

My plan is to leave St. Martin on the 3rd week of April, be at the Azores 21 days later, spend a week there, then 1 week to Gibraltar. That should put me at the Rock around June 1st.

Try to go to Lami Sami on Kefalonia Loutra on Kythnos.

Navpaxos is very pretty with a castellated harbour a castle on the hill and walls that run down almost to the harbour there is a very narrow entrance and shoals to the port on entering its very very small and there is a very good chance you cannot moor no diesel is assailable easily if you get in you will have difficulty turning round, outside is not a good place to moor get their early look and leave.
Galaxhidi I was going there but changed my mind. Corinth canal is a long trip call in at Kiato a large harbour built for tankers and commercial vessels now they do not visit no water or electric available in the main harbour but water available in the fishing harbour. and there are nice shops in the town a five minute walk. At the land entrance to fishing harbour is a good chandlers his name is Fosi. If you go there please say hello from Edita and Mike.

Aegio N38 15'51.84" E22 04'43.68" approximations don't go it is very small muddy and shallow but you can moor outside. Across the bay ESE N38 15'25.92" E22 05'.52" is a small private sailing club we got in there if you can get in there is water and electric and we were not charged for anything but there is a possibility of a charge. the local advertised diesel supplier will not supply anything under 180 litres but speak to the nice Greek man who looks after the harbour and speaks English and he knows somebody who will. tell them you want more than you need. then say sorry! wrong amount
Corinth canal look it up on the internet here English version Διώ�υγα Κο�ίνθου - Corinth Canal For times days closed going east or west. At the time I went through it was closed all day Tuesdays night transit costs extra, dont trail your dingy puts the price up length of boat increases you pay at the sout /east entrance going and coming. There is nowhere to moor / stay when through the canal but on your port if it is still there is a large floating crane its not used and you can moor to that.
If you want any more info I can help you with just PM me. I sailed from Lefkas Lefkada to Amorgos on my last trip 8.50 metres Cobra sailing boat.

[Frederik V]

Originally Posted by Capitain Mike

That is all the west did you not go anywhere East Med???

Yes !


Croatia :
I loved the nature and the harbours, but we don't go back there.
When we were thee (twice) the people were not friendly at all, and there is no wind ! (But other sailors said that they had a much better experience)

Very beautiful are :

Skradin and the waterfalls (it is about two hours landinwards)
Dubrovnik
Trogir
Korcula

On your way to Greece go to Corfu and Paxoi. I should not go to Parka.


Greek Islands :
I have visited all Greek Islands south of Andros and my top 10 are :
Santorini (but go to the harbour in Ios and take the speedferry, unless your keel is less than 1,6 meter you go to the the Vlikhada harbour. Hire a car to visit Oia.)
Nisiros : and visit the Vulcano
Symi : and hire a scooter to drive around the island (panormitis)
Paros : visit Naoussa, anchor in the northern bay but first have a look at the harbour; you might find a place on the outside pier if you are lucky in the morning (beware of your rudder, go bows to)
Naxos : well equipped harbour and a very nice town
Astypalaia : Vathy - very peacefull with one little restaurant, plenty of room to anchor or go to the pier.
Kalymnos : Vathy (best to anchor or going to the pier as close as possible towards the sea)
Schoinoussa : the west bay
Levitha : try to arrive not later than 11 am to fin yourself a buoy. Anchoring in the bay on the westside is possible but I cannot recommand.
Mykonos : the town is worth a visit, well equipped harbour
Kythnos Loutra : and take a bath in the hotsprings running in the sea
Paxoi : on the westcoast of Greece (Ionic islands) on your way to Croatia, but that is another story ...

And don't go to :
Leros : Lakki

Frederik

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Capitain Mike

Yes Dave You are absolutely correct unless you live here as I do, you don't really understand what is happening with the people etc. Goboatingnow seems to know nothing very much at all about Greece Mainland and The islands.
I have lived here on an Island a long way from Athens since January 2006. There is less work (Regulated by the tourist season) lower pay because the polish,Albanians Serbs Bulgaria Indians Pakistanis etc etc will all accept less than the minimum wage and no health payments to IKa.

Were a bit of topic here

Ive been to greece many times, including just recently and I have good friends of mine who work in the greek public sector for over 17 years. The main problem as recognised by those in the public sector is that they live supremely protected lives with super salaries, great holidays, pension rights and workplace rules and regs, whereas private workers have few protections, bad salaries and no pensions. Thats will have to be addressed and no doubt there will be a bit of upset over this, confined almost exclusively to the public sector

The islands are as the islands always have been, were it not for tourism,most wouldn't even exist as inhabited today.The islands are not where any potential social agitation would be anyway.

I don't for one moment deny that Greece is having it tough, much tougher any of the other PIIGS, Ireland has a competitive export trade that generates 90% of GDP, hence it will probably do OK. Portugals problems are relatively minor and Spain is purely a property problem. Italy is potenially a bigger problem, but well see.

What I was saying is that I don't see any potential breakdown in Greek society and certainly nothing that would prevent anyone from holidaying there at any stage. The public unions are of course quite militant, but nothing compared to France and certainly GB in the recent past. Greece is predominately a left of centre country by default.

. I am 70 have ill health but refuse to live in the UK because of its namby pandy attitude (trying to be politically correct)to the people because of all the immigrants legal and illegal because of the crime dirt fillth killings muggings bad education you cant have a Christmas tree and call it a Christmas tree because you might offend someone who is not Christian no Happy Christmas now. It has to be Happy festivities. Now England Sucks its not the England I knew 60 years ago. English men (Not British men) (they even took that away) beware you are now an Ethnic minority).

Well thats a particular view of yours, not borne out by the many millions thats like to live there. Most people( except the National front) accept that the UK is a multicultural society and as such goes, does quite well at it. Im not aware of anywhere where I cant buy a "Christmas tree". In fact its in the US you get the "happy holidays" nonsense.

I often find that ex-pats have the most extreme positive or negative views of the place anyway ( the its all gone to the dogs type of stuff)
Dave

[Capitain Mike]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Were a bit of topic here

Ive been to greece many times, including just recently and I have good friends of mine who work in the greek public sector for over 17 years. The main problem as recognised by those in the public sector is that they live supremely protected lives with super salaries, great holidays, pension rights and workplace rules and regs, whereas private workers have few protections, bad salaries and no pensions. Thats will have to be addressed and no doubt there will be a bit of upset over this, confined almost exclusively to the public sector

The islands are as the islands always have been, were it not for tourism,most wouldn't even exist as inhabited today.The islands are not where any potential social agitation would be anyway.

I don't for one moment deny that Greece is having it tough, much tougher any of the other PIIGS, Ireland has a competitive export trade that generates 90% of GDP, hence it will probably do OK. Portugals problems are relatively minor and Spain is purely a property problem. Italy is potenially a bigger problem, but well see.

What I was saying is that I don't see any potential breakdown in Greek society and certainly nothing that would prevent anyone from holidaying there at any stage. The public unions are of course quite militant, but nothing compared to France and certainly GB in the recent past. Greece is predominately a left of centre country by default.



Well thats a particular view of yours, not borne out by the many millions thats like to live there. Most people( except the National front) accept that the UK is a multicultural society and as such goes, does quite well at it. Im not aware of anywhere where I cant buy a "Christmas tree". In fact its in the US you get the "happy holidays" nonsense.

I often find that ex-pats have the most extreme positive or negative views of the place anyway ( the its all gone to the dogs type of stuff)
Dave

Unless you have lived in an alternate country really you cannot make an unbiased opinion.

Still its only my opinion but then again its only your opinion,



I would not like to hazard a guess at the real number of English who have already departed for better climbs.

Plus those that would be only to pleased to leave if they were not tied by family, both old and young, youngsters being educated those that have no jobs and no money to leave children who do not want to leave for various reasons friends lifestyle etc. Those who are unable to sell what they have to start a new.

Why did I leave the UK you only have to look at the newspapers and TV news, got back visit for a fortnight that will sort your head out....there is a huge exodus of British citizens for one reason, the country is going down the toilet...FAST. No respect, no community spirit, over priced, under policed, drunken teenagers causing trouble everywhere at the weekends, need i go on.
I have a friend....he says I have 2 young children and there is no way on this earth i want them growing up in what the UK has become, over here they can look forward to so much the activities we can do as a family summer or winter. In the UK i wouldn't let them play out in the street, and was dreading them becoming teenagers over there.

The new happy slapping culture is just another example of how parents have failed to install any mutual respect in kids over there. What is the point is bringing up your kids the right way, to respect each each, work hard, etc etc, if they are going to get dragged down by the majority of kids around them.

For me it's the chavs and influx of EU 'migrants', I am a big bloke, bug I just don't feel safe.

The UK has opened it's doors to the HUGE EU massive, allowing the polish, Czech, Romanian. etc etc... exedus.

I have paid into the system for 20+ years and it's these scroungers that are not allowing the UK Government to fulfil their promises to the pensioners and give them back the £££ they have spent all their time paying it\and the NHS can't cope, the schools are bursting at the seams 35+ per class.

I read a report recently that the UK was not even in the top 40 of county's education achievers. Canada was number 4.

So rather than spend the rest of my life watching my back, I'd ratrher enjoy the quality of life I know it's coming....as soon as I can sell the bloody house!

Rant over~
My friend and I don't blame him.

I paid in for 45 years and I receive a pittance, God help you when you want to retire they will do what they did in Greece reduce the pensions that are already being paid. There will be nobody paying in all the money will be being sent abroad to the workers family's in other countries.


Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) indicate that some 385,000 people left the UK for the long term in the year to mid-2006.

Many of those leaving were "long-term migrants" and not British citizens.

Long-term migration into the UK, meanwhile, was 574,000. The figures show the UK population grew to 60,587,000 - an increase of 349,000.
BBC NEWS | UK | Record number of people leave UK

The number of non-Britons leaving the country has risen by 50% from 169,000 in 2007 to 255,000 last year Photo: REUTERS
1:14PM GMT 26 Nov 2009
But the number of new arrivals rose, with more than half-a-million people coming in, official statistics showed.

Record number of people leaving Britain - Telegraph

Over five million British citizens have moved overseas.
Four thousand more depart permanently each week.
Depending on location, your new lifestyle could involve:
Fewer hours commuting & working - more time for family & self.
Mortgage free living - or a lower mortgage.
Bluer skies, warmer weather & shorter winters.
A healthier lifestyle - more time spent in outdoor activities.
Friendlier communities - happier, more relaxed people.

Leaving The UK - Bye Bye Blighty

Its not just me