I heard there was an announcement about opening the US/Canada border on June 30

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Y’all are acting silly... when traveling, when did you ever have to show you were vaccinated against polio, tetanus, hepatitis etc? or show a negative test for Ebola?

Dividing people in groups is worse than people choosing a group. Denying healthy people travel unless they undergo medical procedures is sick.

When traveling to countries that required proof of yellow fever vaccination. Still required by some countries,

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Paul L

When traveling to countries that required proof of yellow fever vaccination. Still required by some countries,

Yes, I have lost my old yellow vaccination booklet, as well as my military passport that included vaccination records too.

I didn’t include yellow fever in my list though :-) But here is the difference: yellow fever is a specific, localized disease that they try to keep from spreading. If you want to travel to an area where infection is likely, you have to take the vaccine. This is very different from requiring people to take a Covid vaccination to travel anywhere... even to their home country, while they are in good health, while the virus has spread world wide long ago and while they may be more resistant to the disease than others who did get the vaccine. For example: people who “recovered” are immune. Why is a positive antibody test not good enough for travel?

When two healthy people take off their masks, shake hands, hug and kiss they still don’t get sick... yet people are being arrested for doing that. If you think it’s normal to incarcerate people for these acts then a line has been crossed.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

When two healthy people take off their masks, shake hands, hug and kiss they still don’t get sick... yet people are being arrested for doing that. If you think it’s normal to incarcerate people for these acts then a line has been crossed.

Quite. And it's not that a (as in one) line has been crossed, we will be crossing many more lines at this rate... Egged on by the population at large. Regardless of how you look at what is going on, vigilance is called for, not simple conformity.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes, I have lost my old yellow vaccination booklet, as well as my military passport that included vaccination records too.

I didn’t include yellow fever in my list though :-) But here is the difference: yellow fever is a specific, localized disease that they try to keep from spreading. If you want to travel to an area where infection is likely, you have to take the vaccine. This is very different from requiring people to take a Covid vaccination to travel anywhere... even to their home country, while they are in good health, while the virus has spread world wide long ago and while they may be more resistant to the disease than others who did get the vaccine. For example: people who “recovered” are immune. Why is a positive antibody test not good enough for travel?

When two healthy people take off their masks, shake hands, hug and kiss they still don’t get sick... yet people are being arrested for doing that. If you think it’s normal to incarcerate people for these acts then a line has been crossed.

You included it in your list with the etc. And you knew someone would bring it up because it directly answers your question. Now you are listing a bunch of nonexistent rules to be outraged about.

As a cruiser it would be a hell of a lot easier right now if I could present an Id that indicated I was c19 vaccinated and could skip the now required quarantines for yachts in the region of the world I am in.

[Mike OReilly]

Looking at the EU's Green Certificate, it specifically states:

A Digital Green Certificate is a digital proof that a person has either

• been vaccinated against COVID-19
• received a negative test result or
• recovered from COVID-19

[GordMay]

The paper [1], discussed in the excellent ‘Wired’ article, linked by Scorpius [post #40] ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3407874

[1] “How Did We Get Here: What Are Droplets and Aerosols and How Far Do They Go? A Historical Perspective on the Transmission of Respiratory Infectious Diseases”
➥ https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3829873

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You included it in your list with the etc. And you knew someone would bring it up because it directly answers your question. Now you are listing a bunch of nonexistent rules to be outraged about.

As a cruiser it would be a hell of a lot easier right now if I could present an Id that indicated I was c19 vaccinated and could skip the now required quarantines for yachts in the region of the world I am in.

I don’t just write that people have been arrested for shaking hands, kissing etc. : this actually happened and were rules enforced by law.

You seem to be in a corner where you can only see one direction, only push against anyone who is critical of what is happening. History has proven that a flawed strategy.

The Id you want was in use before. It was called an Ausweis and when you couldn’t show it, you were shot on the spot. It is morally wrong.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I don't think we're disagreeing. Although I don't see this tribal fear around establishing a Covid-19 vaccine passport that you say exists. There are some very real concerns about disenfranchising some people. And you can't dismiss the interoperability challenge when it comes to the various health record regimes and health records systems. I've spent many years reporting on healthcare, and I can tell you, the challenge of digitizing health records is very real. Getting those records to talk to each other is still a bridge too far in many cases.

As has been mentioned, counterfeiting of Covid-19 tests are already rampant. It would be child's play to fake any of the paper records I've seen. Anyone with Photoshop could easily do it now. So a secure digital record that is accessible to everyone is necessary. It isn't a small problem, but it's clearly one that can be solved.

I predict it will be solved because it is necessary. But it's not as simple as people would like it to be.

Mike,

I know we are not disagreeing but rather mutually grouping around in the dark and sharing our findings.

That said, here is what my fingers tell me:

The USA souther border us relatively porous and has no, NO, covid controls. There is no need to fake a vaccination record nine required.

The USA/Canada border worked on a drivers license ID for a very long time. We survived.

There are anti-vaxers on both side of the border in about equal percentage. Once Canada and USA vaccination rates hit parity then there is no advantage to closing the border, the risk will be the same on either side.

California alone has more population than Canada. If border closings made sense then it would have made sense to close off California. Texas is nearly as populous as Canada so ditto.

Sure there will be some idiot faking a vaccination card. Both directions. By and large the number will be small. The world contains risk, you can not drive the risk to zero.

So we have had our vaccinations. But only got this verification card. So now am I at a disadvantage? Do I have to get vaccinated once again to get the “new and improved” card? That will not do any good convincing folks to run out and get vaccinated.

The simple fact is that our world now contains a new risk that did not exist or we did not know about 2 years ago. At the same time there are MUCH bigger risks which exist that we willingly ignore and tolerate. Consider smoking; clearly a dire health risk but not banned. Alcohol consumption leads to all kinds if health and social problems. Obesity is huge, one could make an argument that covid is largely a disease of the obese, if you want to reduce covid deaths then everyone should get to a <30 BMI.

But we are not collectively freaking out about those risk factors because we have integrated then into our fear index, they are all “normal.” Driving is a hood example. When cars first came along there were many laws enacted to control to because we were afraid of something new. Laws we now consider silly. Once cars lost their novelty we adjusted our fear index and include them in our list normal unavoidable risks.

Then there is a whole category of really huge risks, existential to the culture if not species, you and I recognize, that we know for certain exist but which send others into spasms of denial. The risks are simply too great to allow within their world view.

At some point we will accept covid into our fear index as part of our normal life.

These current gyrations will be as old fashioned as the antiquated automobile laws of 1900.

[Lake-Effect]

It seems silly to get bent out of shape about some sort of COVID vaccination proof for international travel. We already endure much worse every time we fly, because of a very few planes and buildings having been blown up in the past. And Ed Snowden showed us that no matter how paranoid we might get about government surveillance, it's already much, much worse. Not that it impacts older affluent Westerners much.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I don’t just write that people have been arrested for shaking hands, kissing etc. : this actually happened and were rules enforced by law.

You seem to be in a corner where you can only see one direction, only push against anyone who is critical of what is happening. History has proven that a flawed strategy.

The Id you want was in use before. It was called an Ausweis and when you couldn’t show it, you were shot on the spot. It is morally wrong.

Very dramatic. If that was the Id I wanted I would have stated that.

[dfelsent]

The comparison of a medical condition to Nazism is odious.
And the arrests for kissing or handshakes?
I could not find reputable news reports about handshakes, and the kissing I found were weird incidents that merited arrests covid or not.
This thread is off the rails as far as I am concerned.

[Mike OReilly]

My simple point is that achieving an effective vaccine passport is not as simple as it might appear. I have serious concerns about the downsides of any sort of added surveillance on people, but I'm also a realist. I see it as an inevitability in the coming years.

I think this will diminish, as you say, once Covid-19 is incorporated into our standard risk paradigm. But it's not right now. And nations will continue to seek ways of limiting spread. And pointing out that there are other risks and issues doesn't negate the very real problem the SARS-CoV-2 poses.

You mention jurisdictions within the USA. I don't know what California or Texas did to limit travel. As you know, some of our Canadian provinces HAVE put up barriers to travel from within our country. And notwithstanding the current infection rates, Canada has done a much better job of controlling the spread and limiting the damage. Coincidence? Perhaps..., but perhaps not.

Everything changes with time. We can guarantee that the future will look back at the present and find its failings -- that seems to be a trend these days. Will our current actions be seen as an over-reaction? Or will it be seen as foolish complacency? The answer will be shaped by how this pandemic evolves over the next 12 to 24 months.

[wannacat]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

Compared to USA and UK, yes (though USA seems to be slowing while Canada catches up).

But not so terrible as your post suggests.

As of May 14, Canada's vaccination progress is ahead of these European countries:

Germany (tied)
Spain
Denmark
Austria
Belgium
Italy
Estonia
Luxembourg
Finland
Portugal
Sweden
Liechtenstein
France
Poland
Andorra
Switzerland
Greece
Netherlands
Slovenia
Norway
Ireland
Czech
Slovakia

Source: https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021...-vaccinations/

You might be confused with single dose data and the 2 dose stuff. Canada is not even at 2% vaccinated with 2 dose data. Not even close to catching up with the USA.

[wannacat]

Originally Posted by larsfforsberg

As an "anti-vaxer" I can tell you that us non-sheep never wore the masks anyway, so a "masking rule" change will not affect anything. The CDC recommendations will never matter to me. I simply will not comply with their rules that make no sense. If the rules made logical sense, I'd comply, but wearing masks outside? Locking yourself indoors? That's insane - never going to do that.

Got to agree 100% with this one. You want to breath as much oxygen as you can, indoors or out. Anything less is harmful, just ask the canary's living in the mine shafts!

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

My simple point is that achieving an effective vaccine passport is not as simple as it might appear.

From a purely technical point of view (databases etc), it's actually pretty simple. For borders, something linked to passport and/or healthcard. The hangups are all bureaucratic/jurisdictional, and very occasionally ethical .

I believe that proof of COVID vaccination will be a temporary measure of a few years' duration til herd immunity of one sort or another is widespread. Of course, if pandemics are the new normal, then maybe a generalized vaccination tracker will become a permanent part of the passport.