Efoy video (methanol fuel cell)

[rgleason]

A64 good point about charging voltage. Too bad the prices are stratospheric, looks like a reasonable solution.

Thanks for the pics and info, what is your experience about fuel cost and availability?

[Jammer]

You buy the fuel in 2.64 gallon cartridges, which provide 11 kwh or 952 Ah.


https://www.fisheriessupply.com/efoy...10-2-64-gallon


USA street price is $66 plus freight, which may be considerable due to hazmat charges. I understand that they are readily available in Europe.


The units themselves have a 3000 hour warranty and a 5000 hour design life. I get a total cost per delivered kwh including capital cost and fuel cartridges of about $15 / kwh. In context that compares to around $1 / kwh for a diesel generator. The Honda gasoline generators cost about the same to run as a diesel.


I think the use case for a fuel cell is for boats that can almost, but not quite, get away with solar power only (no generator) -- but need a little boost when the days are short or cloudy.

[belizesailor]

Quite spendy for what is just essentially a small gen set..and then there are the proprietary fuel canisters...not so good for remote cruising. I assume that using the fancy name "fuel cell" justifies the price. [emoji6]

If gasoline worries you then convert a Honda genset to propane at a fraction of the cost (even cheaper if you go non-Honda). Propane is typically already aboard for cooking can be refilled almost anywhere world wide.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by rgleason

A64 good point about charging voltage. Too bad the prices are stratospheric, looks like a reasonable solution.

Thanks for the pics and info, what is your experience about fuel cost and availability?

Fuel is NOT cheap and not easy to get in the USA. There WAS a local dealer, but they stopped carrying it. I got the refills from https://www.fisheriessupply.com/efoy-comfort

There seem to be more dealers in the USA now, https://www.efoy-comfort.com/map?cou...&anwendung=All

I usually wait for a sale. Sometimes get free shipping. Shipping has an additional hazmat fee, so I order as much as I can, usually 5-6 refills at a time. I think I have 10 in stock in my home now.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Quite spendy for what is just essentially a small gen set..and then there are the proprietary fuel canisters...not so good for remote cruising. I assume that using the fancy name "fuel cell" justifies the price. [emoji6]

If gasoline worries you then convert a Honda genset to propane at a fraction of the cost (even cheaper if you go non-Honda). Propane is typically already aboard for cooking can be refilled almost anywhere world wide.

it is not really a genset, it is effectively a methanol powered battery charger.

Methanol can be used below deck, propane really shouldn't be stored below deck, never mind running a genset inside the boat. CO is a bad thing on a boat!

Still no moving parts (other than the fuel pump). time proven technology. quiet. safe. automatic

If someone needs a generator, get a generator.

Unsure if the new units are like this, my older fuel cell, I can't even turn on if I wanted to use it. It ONLY comes on if the battery gets low. Heck I never know if it comes on as it makes no noise! It is near 100% efficient, as all the output is electricity, some heat and water.

I sure as heck wouldn't want my portable genset coming on day or night, if I am there or not. Unsure if a portable generator could actually do that like the fuel cell. If someone has room for a real genset, it makes the fuel cell moot.

Yes the unit is stunningly expensive , so is the fuel. Yes it is hard to get. Also, it is not for everyone. If someone can get away with a small genset, go for it.

[AndyEss]

Online search finds multiple fuel cells that use propane as fuel, getting around the cost of the proprietary methanol fuel cartridges.
Waiting on some cost quotes.
Anyone have any experience with propane fuel cells?

[rgleason]

I had a post outlining these units, but it seems to have disappeared for some unknown reason. (actually it is in this thread
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...es-221607.html)


They now make Efoy Comfort 80ah, 140ah, 210ah the cost ranges from $3000 to $5800 https://www.fisheriessupply.com/site...itesearch=true


Sorry.

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by rgleason

It certainly would be simpler than adding solar, new alt, and new batteries and I could live with 80w×24=1920w. 1920w/12= 160ah.... Might be worthwhile!

You need to carefully work out how much that 160Ah/day will really cost you with the Efoy, not only the fuel but the ongoing maintenance costs. The video was talking about light users with three canisters a year - if you are cruising say 6 months of the year and need 160Ah/d that's about 29000Ah you need to generate each year without any solar, so at 925Ah per canister that's over 30 canisters a year not the 3 from the video.

160Ah/d would mean running the unit for 160/8.8=18 hours/d. For 180 days that's nearly 3240 hours of use.

For heavy users Efoy say at 5000hrs the unit needs replacing because the power output reduces to about 50% - that's only 4.4 amps - doubling the cost of the Methanol fuel at this stage. A replacement of the defective component will cost many $1000's + return costs to Efoy in Germany, but after this repair it is not a new unit. Therefore Efoy recommend replacing the whole unit after reaching the fuel cells lifetime.

So after the initial outlay of $6000 US the annual ongoing costs are $6000 for a replacement unit and 30 canisters at $60=$1800. That's nearly $8000 a year.

Efoy now offer a 5 year warranty on the 210 but the terms and conditions probably prohibit any claim on most cruising boats. The key limitations are that the maximum size of the battery bank being charged is is 350Ah - for the 210 unit, and the device is not intended for industrial or permanent use. Running 18 hrs a day would probably be considered 'permanent', because you would be reaching the cells lifetime after just over a year instead of 10 years.

So compare all this with solar whose ongoing costs are zero with maybe a lifetime of 25 years for some panels?????

I've had long exchanges with Efoy and they do agree that for full time cruisers their fuel cell is not a cheap option.

I'm happy to respond to any sensible and well thought-through arguments about these figures - and any corrections - but please do speak to Efoy first to clarify any questions you may have.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

You need to carefully work out how much that 160Ah/day will really cost you with the Efoy, not only the fuel but the ongoing maintenance costs. The video was talking about light users with three canisters a year - if you are cruising say 6 months of the year and need 160Ah/d that's about 29000Ah you need to generate each year without any solar, so at 925Ah per canister that's over 30 canisters a year not the 3 from the video.

160Ah/d would mean running the unit for 160/8.8=18 hours/d. For 180 days that's nearly 3240 hours of use.

For heavy users Efoy say at 5000hrs the unit needs replacing because the power output reduces to about 50% - that's only 4.4 amps - doubling the cost of the Methanol fuel at this stage. A replacement of the defective component will cost many $1000's + return costs to Efoy in Germany, but after this repair it is not a new unit. Therefore Efoy recommend replacing the whole unit after reaching the fuel cells lifetime.

So after the initial outlay of $6000 US the annual ongoing costs are $6000 for a replacement unit and 30 canisters at $60=$1800. That's nearly $8000 a year.

Efoy now offer a 5 year warranty on the 210 but the terms and conditions probably prohibit any claim on most cruising boats. The key limitations are that the maximum size of the battery bank being charged is is 350Ah - for the 210 unit, and the device is not intended for industrial or permanent use. Running 18 hrs a day would probably be considered 'permanent', because you would be reaching the cells lifetime after just over a year instead of 10 years.

So compare all this with solar whose ongoing costs are zero with maybe a lifetime of 25 years for some panels?????

I've had long exchanges with Efoy and they do agree that for full time cruisers their fuel cell is not a cheap option.

I'm happy to respond to any sensible and well thought-through arguments about these figures - and any corrections - but please do speak to Efoy first to clarify any questions you may have.

If I were cruising full time or at least at long stretches, I do agree any fuel cell option should augment a good solar array or wind...if you consume a lot of power.

Using batteries like firefly as we do, there really is no real reason to get the batteries to 100% using wind/solar/fuel cell, as there is not much of, if any, problem with PSOC charging

For local cruising that we do, the fuel cell is far more than we need. But other hard core, long term cruisers will need another option to reduce the costs, nevermind trying to find a efoy refill in most parts of the world!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

You need to carefully work out how much that 160Ah/day will really cost you with the Efoy, not only the fuel but the ongoing maintenance costs. The video was talking about light users with three canisters a year - if you are cruising say 6 months of the year and need 160Ah/d that's about 29000Ah you need to generate each year without any solar, so at 925Ah per canister that's over 30 canisters a year not the 3 from the video.

160Ah/d would mean running the unit for 160/8.8=18 hours/d. For 180 days that's nearly 3240 hours of use.

For heavy users Efoy say at 5000hrs the unit needs replacing because the power output reduces to about 50% - that's only 4.4 amps - doubling the cost of the Methanol fuel at this stage. A replacement of the defective component will cost many $1000's + return costs to Efoy in Germany, but after this repair it is not a new unit. Therefore Efoy recommend replacing the whole unit after reaching the fuel cells lifetime.

So after the initial outlay of $6000 US the annual ongoing costs are $6000 for a replacement unit and 30 canisters at $60=$1800. That's nearly $8000 a year.

Efoy now offer a 5 year warranty on the 210 but the terms and conditions probably prohibit any claim on most cruising boats. The key limitations are that the maximum size of the battery bank being charged is is 350Ah - for the 210 unit, and the device is not intended for industrial or permanent use. Running 18 hrs a day would probably be considered 'permanent', because you would be reaching the cells lifetime after just over a year instead of 10 years.

So compare all this with solar whose ongoing costs are zero with maybe a lifetime of 25 years for some panels?????

I've had long exchanges with Efoy and they do agree that for full time cruisers their fuel cell is not a cheap option.

I'm happy to respond to any sensible and well thought-through arguments about these figures - and any corrections - but please do speak to Efoy first to clarify any questions you may have.

In the video posted above, Cote's says he would not recommend the unit for full time long term cruising.

[rgleason]

sailing legend


Good points, it could be expensive, but it is quiet and runs in the background. The cost is horrendous...perhaps coupled with a medium sized solar, good batteries and alternator, it would be good, but is not a full answer by any means.

[Emmalina]

not exactly of the shelf stuff is it !

[Cheechako]

So, If I heard that right:
-a cartridge is $80 and get you about 900 amp hours. ? Some say they use 2 cartridges a year though? Huh? With fridge I used about 100 ah a day. ($3250 in fuel cells per year)
-He states this device is not for offshore long distance sailors. (10:08)
-7 years of heavy use the unit is down to about 50% of output.
-140 model is about $5k canadian. That's not bad , maybe $3800 US?
-One wonders if they weren't trying to control the fuel market if it would be much more viable.

[a64pilot]

I believe it’s life may be shorter than that. I believe it’s a 5000 hr machine.
In my case I’d have to run a couple of them continuously.
I’d be replacing both machines every seven months.

Now I believe the future is fuel cells. Likely hydrogen, but not yet.
Fuel cells have been used for decades on space craft, and maybe it’s not ready for most of us yet.

[rgleason]

I thought they were developing buses that used fuel cells a number of years ago. With electric cars entering the scene, you would think a good fuel cell would be of great interest too, rather than switching batteries or waiting for charges.


Perhaps propane fuel cells will get better.