Can ham and marine SSB play together?

[tkeithlu]

Assuming you are indeed a beginner with radios, there's something missing here. To use a ham radio in the HF band where the marine SSB frequencies live and play, you will need a general ham license, which is the middle level, your needing to pass the technician test and then the general test. A technician license doesn't allow voice in the HF range.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

In the early days ( I gave up the day job 11 years ago ) it was a curse.

You would be swinging the ship into the berth in either fog or a full gale- with just me, the mate and the ship's dog on the bridge - and the bloody thing would go of with a noise to wake the dead... no STFU button so the only way to shut it up was.... hit the relay button... which was what someone else in an ocean far far away had just done before us ..

In all the years I sailed with it we received one vaguely relevant distress... ie same continent. The rest were either relays or as you say undesignated from either the Bay of Bengal or 0*N, 0*W....

There was a log 'out there' on the internet years ago which I can no longer find... a bit of finger trouble in the Canaries led to this thing bouncing around the Pacific forever and a day... several RNZN ships had relayed it 2 or 3 times..

I hear ya

Back in the olden days, on AHTS vessels with no DP, we would be working some offshore installation driving from the aft console and the bloody thing would go off (only things louder are general/fire alarms) and cause it was the olden days there would only be the 1 on the bridge, myself or the Mate driving, and cause we where otherwise occupied driving and concentrating on not hitting the installation, we would just have to put up with the racket until one of the guys on deck was free to come up to the bridge to shut it up, especially if we where connected to said installation with an export hose. Leaving the boat to fend for itself, crossing the bridge to the GMDSS console and hoping the boat doesn't crash into the installation, is a big

Of course these days we have the wonderful Dynamic Positioning system, AND the requirement to have 2 officers on the bridge at all times when inside the installations 500m safety zone, whether on DP or not, so attending to errant DSC calls is dealt with swiftly these days

We still do get the odd never ending relays, although these days I'm undecided whether it's through deliberation or ignorance, either way I sometimes wish I could reach through the receiver and break someone's fingers

[El Pinguino]

I see someone in the US has a heap of new SEA tuners for sale at what looks like a good price.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/1720...2F172094879154

All care and no responsibilty in bringing this to people's attention......

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GILow

.........
And I was of the belief (I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong), that ANY transmitter is fair go in a emergency, so a hacked 718 might kind of be legitimate in this context?........

Yeah, that's true - any frequency, any radio, any operator.

Can't say I have ever heard of anyone resorting to needing this fact .

Well in Oz anyway and presumably most first world countries, heard rumours that even possessing a transmitter in some banana republics is enough for one to disappear for a long time

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Yeah, that's true - any frequency, any radio, any operator.

Can't say I have ever heard of anyone resorting to needing this fact .

::

Well, I suppose that in the extreme cases there'd be no boat or radio left to inspect for compliance after the event. So who'd know? ;^)

[foojin]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I see someone in the US has a heap of new SEA tuners for sale at what looks like a good price.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/1720...2F172094879154

All care and no responsibilty in bringing this to people's attention......

Can this be used with any radio, whether ham or marina SSB?

How would it compare to the SEA 1612C, or the ICOM series of tuners?

[Jim Cate]

Can't say I have ever heard of anyone resorting to needing this fact .

Wottie, some years ago I (as a ham operator) was involved in an emergency situation that was called into a MM ham net by an unlicensed operator. She was on a boat off the coast of South America, the skipper was suffering from a severe asthma attack and they had run out of oxygen for him. She was an RN and thought he would die within a few days. With a lot of relaying efforts, we managed to involve a US navy ship who managed to deliver an oxy bottle to them in time. A successful outcome, and at no time ws there any hesitation to accept the calls despite the lack of license.

There was some awkwardness due to the name of the vessel: "Up Yours". Lacking call signs, we had to use the name of the vessel for ID, and several operators (including the Coast Guard who came up on the ham band as well) we a bit cross about that unfortunate name!

jim

[Seeking Solace]

Originally Posted by foojin

Can this be used with any radio, whether ham or marina SSB?

How would it compare to the SEA 1612C, or the ICOM series of tuners?

Any radio would be a stretch. It can be used with any radio that is within it's limitations for tuning. That being said it should work with any radio on the frequencies it was designed, with a somewhat resonant antenna system.

The SEA 1612C and the ICOM tuners are fairly straight forward. Look at the technical specifications for each one. I've used the ICOM tuners and they work very well. I've heard the SEA tuners are good too. I prefer a manual tuner, but for simplicity the auto tuners can take all the work out of it.

[foojin]

Originally Posted by Seeking Solace

Any radio would be a stretch. It can be used with any radio that is within it's limitations for tuning. That being said it should work with any radio on the frequencies it was designed, with a somewhat resonant antenna system.

Thanks for that. I guess I was just fishing. Thinking about starting to build a radio setup, maybe installing Bill Trayfor's alternate backstay antenna, connecting it to a tuner, then add whatever radio and modem I can find/afford.

Figured if I could get a tuner that worked with whichever popular ham radio or marine radio I might find, then I could move ahead.

Of course, radio/tuner/modem packages sometimes come up, then I could be trying to sell the extra parts.

[ka4wja]

foojin,
Yes the SEA 1612C is a good tuner....not sure these exact items on ebay are configured the same as the regular 1612C, but a quick call to SEA will get you that answer in short order...
BUT...
But, as I (and others) tried to impress upon you, you're really putting the cart before the horse!


I'm wondering if you read the detailed info I posted in post #44??
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2363944

And, if you could answer the questions there, we could certainly point you in a good direction....

But, until then....
I'm going point out here again that we have no idea where (or how) you're planning on sailing/cruising, and have no idea what you might need a "modem" for?? (and, of course, that's because we don't know what your need for comms is...)
Remember that no modem is needed at all to obtain some of the best (usually considered the "gold standard") offshore and hi-seas weather info/forecasts, nor to contact shore stations (marine or ham), nor to contact other vessels, nor to place ship-to-shore (and shore-to-ship) telephone calls, etc...

Originally Posted by foojin

Thanks for that. I guess I was just fishing. Thinking about starting to build a radio setup, maybe installing Bill Trayfor's alternate backstay antenna, connecting it to a tuner, then add whatever radio and modem I can find/afford.

Figured if I could get a tuner that worked with whichever popular ham radio or marine radio I might find, then I could move ahead.

Of course, radio/tuner/modem packages sometimes come up, then I could be trying to sell the extra parts.

The only thing that a "modem" is needed for is to allow e-mail connectivity when offshore/on-passage and/or in remote locales (away from cellular/3G/4G, or Wi-Fi)...and most sailors/cruisers find the few days or week or two at a time, that they are away from this connectivity to be a godsend rather than a hindrance...
(the exception here are those running a business when offshore....but for 99% of them, the significant investment in a high-speed sitcom terminal, is a no-brainer and easily expensed-off in a few months...


Please click this link and read over post #44...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2363944
Follow the links there...
And, let us know where you're planning on sailing/cruising when you do "sail off"....and let us know what your e-mail connectivity requirement is....
And, we can help you out...


Fair winds..

John

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by foojin

Can this be used with any radio, whether ham or marina SSB?

How would it compare to the SEA 1612C, or the ICOM series of tuners?

Well, the WX uses to same manual https://picclick.com/SEA-1617WX-1612...l#&gid=1&pid=3 so it must be essentially the same machine.

Going back to your original question... the benefit of an SEA is that it only requires 12vdc and the co-ax connection as in simple terms it tunes on your voice.

The ICOMs needs co-ax and a control cable ( which also carries the 12vdc ) from the radio...
I have never tried it but I feel that running 2 radios into one icom tuner ( as per original query ) would see you living in 'interesting times'.

[foojin]

@El Pinguino

Thanks for that. I see that unless people followed your link they would not see that it was SEA 1612WX's for sale and not 1612C's. I was asking if they were different and/or compatible with most radios, hence John's irritation that he had already told me that 1612C's work with virtually anything.

In the 1612C manual I found this:

"The l6l2C is avaitable in the following two optional configurations: thc l6lZW and thc l6lZWX. The l6l2W is a i6t2C with a gas filled spark gap tube installed on the printed circuit board assembly. This part will shunt excessively high voltages to the ground plane (near lightning strikes) to prevent damage to the RF sensors. The l612WX is a l6l2W with a RF relay assembly that shorts the antenna output connector to ground when the power to the coupler is switched OFF."

Sounds like differences in electrical management rather than general function.


@ka4wja

John, I read your questions as ones I should ask myself and not ones that you were actually seeking answers.

I am also an old fart who started sailing as a kid in the 60s. In 2001, while living in Thailand, we bought a UK-built Vancouver 27 and for years kicked about the Andaman Sea before setting off. Took us three years to get home.

We did not have a radio other than VHF and shortwave to listen to news. If I had to count on one hand mankind's most glorious inventions, one would be the BBC.

We used an Iridium sat phone for weather/family/friends. My wife found an amazing deal on a minutes package. We never considered a HF radio. We did not need it. Though a backup would have been nice.

Anyway, we live on our new-to-us boat and are preparing to sail off again. Down the coast to Mexico first, then god knows...

We will have an Iridium, probably a Go, or similar. My wife would insist on it. She wants to be able to contact her daughters instantly, cost be damned.

Another factor that has no price tag is worry at home. I have often felt that having no offshore communications would be better. Weather will hit you no matter what in a small boat, and you react much the same whether you know a low is coming or you don't.

Having offshore comms requires you to use them or family will worry, and even, trust me, visit a local coast guard office to ask if maybe a ship should be sent 2,000 miles to investigate. It does not take many hours before an expected call at a set time turns to smoldering panic when it does not come.

So my biggest concern about having a sat phone with no backup is that it will stop working and family at home will worry that something dreadful has happened.

I thought it would be nice to have a fallback, a radio with which I could get weather, listen to nets and perhaps contact loved ones if the Iridium died. And, of course, with all the money sunk in satellite communications (cost be damned) I was thinking I would come into the radio world from the low end.

I figured I would get a ham, get my license and play. If sometime we were able to acquire a pactor modem at a good price, I would. I agree with what you say about cell links, though we were often away from email for a month or longer. Acquiring a phone, card or dongle was not always convenient in a new country and laws, like in Japan, make it crazy for foreigners.

That led to my question. If I was going to get a ham radio, could I set up a system to which it would be easy to add (or swap in) a marine SSB if I found I wanted one?

I have learned some things about tuners and pactor modems if I chose to add one, so the exercise was helpful.

My wife laughs at the thought of me talking to strangers on a radio. She holds her hand to her mouth, pretending it's a mic, and mimicking CW McCall: "Ten-four Rubber Ducky. Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a convoy." It's cute.

[Seeking Solace]

You know my wife used to make those jokes about radio. Then it helped us out of a bad situation and she started using it too. I had to find other things to play with while I waited for her to finish. I joked about buying another one and going somewhere remote so I could use it.

The long has certainly already been said about what your thoughts are coming into things.

Here's the short. You can't go wrong with it. It's bailed me out more than once and I'm thankful for that. Having a backup satphone wouldn't be a bad idea either, especially with worried family. They are all a compromise. Ask yourself the most important question: What is my life and those who are with me worth? Then spend accordingly.

Plenty of people have gone around the world without a radio. It can be done. There's a lot who have never been heard from again who had a radio and a sat phone. Life has no guarantees it would seem. Do the best with what you have and enjoy the ride.

BTW, Ham radio is a lot of fun.

[ka4wja]

foojin,
Well, I typed out a lengthy and detailed post, with lots of cool info, specific to your application....but alas, lost it all when I went to submit it and found I had lost internet connection!! Argh!
But, no worries, maybe that was a sign for me to be brief! (yeah, like that's gonna' happen!)



1) Up front....as you saw in the SEA manual, those tuners on ebay will work fine for your application...(sorry about recommending a call to SEA, didn't know you had the manual)


2) Secondly, no irritation here at all!!
Sometimes my enthusiasm comes off as insistence, and some may take that the wrong way...so..
So, to be clear, I understand your application now, and can be of more help...but was never irritated!


3) No worries on being an old salt...I started my cruising in the 60's as well (as a kid)....grew up in S. FL, and cruised the Bahamas, Carib, N. Atl, the Med, etc., before the likes of GPS, let alone sat phones!
Started with just an old LW / MW RDF, and (when it worked) an old 2mhz AM transceiver, and an old "flasher-type" depth sounder...later I had a SW radio (and yes, the BBC was my fav, as well)
And, going across the Atlantic I had SSB (and WeFax)...

BTW, I tell the story of being anchored with the bow touching the beach on Peter Island, BVI....for a week at a time, and never seeing another soul....the only way I knew the rest of the world was out there was the BBC and the lights of Road Town glowing in the sky at night...(damn that was 50 years ago...gee, I'm feeling old now!

BTW, still don't have satcom on-board, nor any e-mail connectivity when offshore....
(heck, didn't even take my laptop on my last Atlantic crossings in 2007 / 2008, but will next time...)


4) Since I was standing watches before puberty and learned offshore / celestial navigation before I got a driver's license, I don't have the issues with family/friends on shore, worrying....sometimes forget that many families these days do have issues with their loved ones at sea...
So, I understand your application here...
And, I recommend Iridium....not the "Go", but a real Iridium sat phone, and a permanently installed external antenna, allowing the phone to secured below deck, and still be useful...
As well as, an HF radio!!


5) While. I still think a real MF/HF-DSC-SSB radioetelphone (such as the Icom M-802, at $1800 new, ~ $1000 used) is a great idea for all sailing offshore...in your specific application, an old/used Icom M-700Pro Marine transceiver (~ $500 - $600) is a good choice as well...or, if you don't mind a lot of knobs/adjustments (and the "age" of the radio), then the venerable Icom IC-735 (ham transceiver) at ~ $300, is a good choice....
{just make sure whatever radio you choose, work well before you buy it!! and also, make sure you grasp all of the RFI issues presented by many of our modern devices (on-board and on-shore), and remember to learn about HF radio comms and HF radiowave propagation...Watch the videos I referenced earlier!! }

And, understand that without MF/HF-DSC signaling you will not be able to directly contact other vessels at sea (1000's of merchant / SOLAS vessels at sea all the time), nor most maritime coast stations (> 80 HF-DSC coast stations and > 450 MF-DSC coast stations, worldwide)...Shipcom WLO/KLB, the USCG, AMSA, and NZMA, are the exceptions, as they still have Voice watchstanding..
Even many old salts forget the implementation of the GMDSS decades ago, changed things...


6) Just a reminder here that there is no need for sat com data comms, nor an HF PACTOR modem, to have easy access to the "gold standard" of offshore / hi-sea weather info....

And, while I have a similar philosophy ("you will sail with the wind / weather that you have out there", is something I have said/wrote often), there is a distinct advantage in actually having weather forecast information, that allows you to change course to reduce the effects of worsening weather ahead, or just as importantly change course to find better wind/weather (I have personally done both of these things, on Atlantic crossings, as well as on other passages, too)
Not taking advantage of these forecasts, which are broadcast multiple times a day, for free....just seems short-sided to me...
{please note that many of my fellow sailors fail to grasp that there are seasoned / experienced maritime meteorologists that prepare ocean forecasts multiple times per day (which are very good), and many ignore these freely-available forecasts, and instead grab some raw computer model data (from GRIB files...thru e-mail, from a sat phone or PACTOR modem)....this is also, in my opinion, rather short-sided....but, the good news is that when most are made aware of the differences, they will choose the more reliable "human-derived" forecasts, ahead of the GRIB's...and fyi, these human-derived forecasts are available both for free via HF broadcasts (Voice, WeFax, and text), as well as by e-mail request via saildocs...}


7) A few brief, specific comments...

Originally Posted by foojin

We did not have a radio other than VHF and shortwave to listen to news. If I had to count on one hand mankind's most glorious inventions, one would be the BBC.
Remember that here in N. Amer / Mexico, you're not likely to hear too much in English (other than religious broadcasts) on SW....no more BBC, RCI, Radio Australia, etc..actually haven't heard Radio Natherlands, RFI, nor DW in last couple years (here in Florida), either...
Yes, there is still some good English language SW broadcasting, BBC, etc....but they are broadcast to far flung areas, not coastal US, Mex, Carib, etc...


We used an Iridium sat phone for weather/family/friends. My wife found an amazing deal on a minutes package. We never considered a HF radio. We did not need it. Though a backup would have been nice.
Yes...an HF radio will be of great use to you...even if just mainly for receiving...
See my comments/recommendations above...


Anyway, we live on our new-to-us boat and are preparing to sail off again. Down the coast to Mexico first, then god knows...
We will have an Iridium, probably a Go, or similar. My wife would insist on it. She wants to be able to contact her daughters instantly, cost be damned.
Iridium sat phone (not the "Go") and ext. ant....
As well as a good quad-band, unlocked GSM cell phone...
(understand that cellular infrastructure is much better than even a few years ago...in developing countries, it can be better than in unpopulated/remote areas in the US! 'cuz, it's a LOT cheaper to put remote cellular towers in, than fiber/copper!!)


I have often felt that having no offshore communications would be better. Weather will hit you no matter what in a small boat, and you react much the same whether you know a low is coming or you don't.
As I wrote above...
While I have a similar philosophy ("you will sail with the wind / weather that you have out there", is something I have said/wrote often), there is a distinct advantage in actually having weather forecast information, that allows you to change course to reduce the effect of worsening weather ahead, or just as importantly change course to find better wind/weather (I have personally done both of these things, on Atlantic crossings, as well as on other passages, too)
Not taking advantage of these forecasts, which are broadcast multiple times a day, for free....just seems short-sided to me...
{please note that many of my fellow sailors fail to grasp that there are seasoned / experienced maritime meteorologists that prepare ocean forecasts multiple times per day (which are very good), and many ignore these freely-available forecasts, and instead grab some raw computer model data (from GRIB files...thru e-mail, from a sat phone or PACTOR modem)....this is also, in my opinion, rather short-sided....
but, the good news is that when most are made aware of the differences, they will choose the more reliable "human-derived" forecasts, ahead of the GRIB's...and fyi, these human-derived forecasts are available both for free via HF broadcasts (Voice, WeFax, and text), as well as by e-mail request via saildocs...}



Another factor that has no price tag is worry at home.
Having offshore comms requires you to use them or family will worry, and even, trust me, visit a local coast guard office to ask if maybe a ship should be sent 2,000 miles to investigate. It does not take many hours before an expected call at a set time turns to smoldering panic when it does not come.
So my biggest concern about having a sat phone with no backup is that it will stop working and family at home will worry that something dreadful has happened.
I thought it would be nice to have a fallback, a radio with which I could get weather, listen to nets and perhaps contact loved ones if the Iridium died. And, of course, with all the money sunk in satellite communications (cost be damned) I was thinking I would come into the radio world from the low end.
I figured I would get a ham, get my license and play.
Yes, having a working HF radio will be a good choice for you (see details above, and in earlier posts)
Also, as I wrote above:
Since, I don't have the issues with family/friends on shore, worrying....sometimes I forget that many families these days do have issues with their loved ones at sea...
So, I understand your application here...

And, I recommend Iridium....not the "Go", but a real Iridium sat phone, and a permanently installed external antenna, allowing the phone to secured below deck, and still be useful...along with your proposed HF radio...


If sometime we were able to acquire a pactor modem at a good price, I would.
Please take note that I see no need for a PACTOR modem in your application....this will save you as much as $2000...


I agree with what you say about cell links, though we were often away from email for a month or longer. Acquiring a phone, card or dongle was not always convenient in a new country and laws, like in Japan, make it crazy for foreigners.
As I mentioned above, a good quad-band, unlocked GSM cell phone, will work well for you, as well as a good external antenna (or cell "booster", if properly wired/installed, more details on this if you desire..)
Please understand that cellular infrastructure is much better than even a few years ago...in developing countries, it can be better than in unpopulated/remote areas in the US! 'cuz, it's a LOT cheaper to put remote cellular towers in, than fiber/copper!!)


That led to my question. If I was going to get a ham radio, could I set up a system to which it would be easy to add (or swap in) a marine SSB if I found I wanted one?
Yes, and that was answered early on...
My (and others) ramblings notwithstanding...

While, I still think a real MF/HF-DSC-SSB radioetelphone (such as the Icom M-802, at $1800 new, ~ $1000 used) is a great idea for all sailing offshore...in your specific application, an old/used Icom M-700Pro Marine transceiver (~ $500 - $600) is a good choice as well...or, if you don't mind a lot of knobs/adjustments (and the "age" of the radio), then the venerable Icom IC-735 (ham transceiver) at ~ $300, is a good choice....

Make sure whatever radio you choose, works well before you buy it!! and also, make sure you grasp all of the RFI issues presented by many of our modern devices (on-board and on-shore), and remember to learn about HF radio comms and HF radiowave propagation...

Just understand that without MF/HF-DSC signaling you will not be able to directly contact other vessels at sea, nor most maritime coast stations in times of distress...(Shipcom WLO/KLB, the USCG, AMSA, and NZMA, are the exceptions)
Even many old salts forget the implementation of the GMDSS decades ago, changed things...



I have learned some things about tuners
That's great!


and pactor modems if I chose to add one,
I see no need for a PACTOR modem in your application....this will save you as much as $2000...


so the exercise was helpful.
That's good!!


My wife laughs at the thought of me talking to strangers on a radio. She holds her hand to her mouth, pretending it's a mic, and mimicking CW McCall: "Ten-four Rubber Ducky. Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a convoy." It's cute.
No offense here at all...but, even those independent sailors who do not follow the herd, many times find HF radio comms keeps them connected to those around them, as well as to the world at large...
And, ironically....it is more likely to be the female half of the crew (of these independent cruisers) to be the ones conversing on the radio, rather than the male members....(yes, the guys usually "get the weather" or handle the tech/mechanical stuff, but the girls on these more independent boats are the ones more likely to be talking to each other on the radio!!)

Hope this helps...and sorry for the long-winded ramblings...

Fair winds...

John

[Communicator]

Hi,

if you have a ham radio licence and have a PC on board, try this software for position reporting and global email..

https://winlink.org/tags/wl2k

Hope it helps