Can ham and marine SSB play together?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by foojin

Perhaps I used inaccurate terminology. I just wanted to know if there was a radio/antenna/tuner/modem setup in which I could easily switch radios if I wished. I thought I would like to set up something where the radio was interchangeable given current technology.

All HF radios, are easily interchangeable, with all other HF radios, so don't worry about it.

You'll have to chop off and adapt some connectors, and you will want to change the tuner with the radio in most cases. None of this is a big deal.

Even better, is to buy a radio which, from the beginning, does both ham and marine HF. Then you don't have to chop anything (resell, buy, adapt, etc.). But I try to avoid being a broken record . . . . .

[leftbrainstuff]

We have a ham, Icom IC735 and an SSB, an Icom M710 with a Pactor modem. We have seperate tuners for each and the aerials are seperate backstays.

The SSB is more plug and play and the Ham requires more dial spinning.

The SSB convenience is our primary offshore weather tool. The Ham is our backup and it keeps my old school signals experience alive.

We also get redundancy in terms of tuners, isolated backstays and wiring, cabling.

As for teeing 2 radios into one tuner or antenna that tends to violate the kiss principle. Those of us who have had to maintain comms in the field (military) tend to prefer duplication over cost minimization.

That said we use the same AT140 Icom tuners for both radios. You could use one and swap cables at the radio. Same goes for the Pactor.

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by GILow

Fair enough, quite different ball parks then.

My retrospective feeling following my recent HF journey is that I will probably never use the marine frequencies on our radio, unless it is an emergency. (In this regard I am a bit enamored of the red DSC emergency button on the 802, though I accept that it may be a false sense of security.)

And I was of the belief (I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong), that ANY transmitter is fair go in a emergency, so a hacked 718 might kind of be legitimate in this context?

Many ways to skin this cat. My particular cat de-epidermis journey was sent down the 802 path because of a wonderful CF member offering to sell me their rig, if that had not happened I think I would have been very tempted by your suggested HAM soup recipe.

Matt

Can anyone recall anyone ever being rescued because they pushed the dsc button an ssb radio?

VHF dsc makes great sense but on an ssb and only on 2142 MHz I'm not so sure.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by foojin

That could be. She loves to bake.

When we first got an AIS, in some crowded seas she spent a lot her time talking to the crews of ships, treating them like family.

Shows you what I know. Is there anything other than marine nets where marine SSBs might have an advantage?

I use my Marine radio, the 710, for marine band cruising nets, ham band cruising nets, Sailmail, and wefax reception.
I use my Ham radio... the 706Mk2G for marine band cruising nets, ham band cruising nets, wefax reception, and digital modes.
It depends on how the mood takes me on the day......

I, like Leftbrainstuff, have two independent systems... 2 tuners( AT130, AT140), two ants ( backstay and whip).. the only thing not duplicated is the Pactor.

Its all about redundancy... having the mast fall down does that to a bloke.

Doing it all again I would probably put the SEA tuner back on the boat and have radio and ant selector switches upstream and downstream of the tuner.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Can anyone recall anyone ever being rescued because they pushed the dsc button an ssb radio?

VHF dsc makes great sense but on an ssb and only on 2142 MHz I'm not so sure.

Nope, but then I don't recall ever being rescued either..

DSC is on HF... as well as MF ( 2187.5)

That said I refuse to be drawn into any debate about the merits of HF DSC.....

[GILow]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Can anyone recall anyone ever being rescued because they pushed the dsc button an ssb radio?

VHF dsc makes great sense but on an ssb and only on 2142 MHz I'm not so sure.

Like I said, it may be a false sense of security, but it is just another tool next to the two epirbs and the life raft.

Also, I got the impression the 802 transmits the DSC emergency call on the six (?) standard emergency frequencies.

John (KA4WJA) describes the process in detail, and I confess I was a bit confused by the end, but I definitely came away thinking it was multiple frequencies. (John, QSL?)

Be that as it may, the radio sends out a strong and clear signal according to those that choose to let me know they can hear me when I use it, and it is invisible in the boat, so I am pretty chuffed about the whole thing.

VHF DSC for emergencies would be no use to me, I am sometimes out of VHF cover.

Matt

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by GILow

Like I said, it may be a false sense of security, but it is just another tool next to the two epirbs and the life raft.

Also, I got the impression the 802 transmits the DSC emergency call on the six (?) standard emergency frequencies.

John (KW4JA) describes the process in detail, and I confess I was a bit confused by the end, but I definitely came away thinking it was multiple frequencies.

Be that as it may, the radio sends out a strong and clear signal according to those that choose to let me know they can hear me when I use it, and it is invisible in the boat, so I am pretty chuffed about the whole thing.

VHF DSC for emergencies would be no use to me, I am sometimes out of VHF cover.

Matt

For reasons best known to the guvment beancounters Oz SAR doesn't monitor VHF... the whole continent is an A3 area... https://www.amsa.gov.au/search-and-r...out-the-gmdss/

However, if you are in mid Tasman Sea when it all turns to custard, having your VHF DSC call picked up by a ship just over the horizon may be preferable to having your 8 meg HF DSC signal picked up by a ship in the Gulf of Mexico.

Damn... I just said I wouldn't get involved in this DSC business.....

[GILow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

For reasons best known to the guvment beancounters Oz SAR doesn't monitor VHF... the whole continent is an A3 area... https://www.amsa.gov.au/search-and-r...out-the-gmdss/

However, if you are in mid Tasman Sea when it all turns to custard, having your VHF DSC call picked up by a ship just over the horizon may be preferable to having your 8 meg HF DSC signal picked up by a ship in the Gulf of Mexico.

Damn... I just said I wouldn't get involved in this DSC business.....

Too late now.

Most of the time I am in range of the various shore repeaters, but even coming around from Melbourne to Adelaide we hit some dead spots. Enough so that I had suspicions that the VHF on the boat was kaput, despite the positive reports from various shore stations along the way. Later discussions with others at the club confirmed my experience, it's a bit patchy along that part of the coast.

Anyway, belts and braces. A DSC VHF is on the shopping list for a number of reasons, including redundancy on VHF. I have two Epirbs on board, so two VHF radios makes sense to me.

As for the HF, where else am I going to learn about vintage tractor repairs?

Matt

[PommyDave]

There is one issue that nobody has mentioned so far, and that is radio licensing.

With ham radio (aka Amateur Radio), the operator is the one who is licensed. But with Marine Radio, both the operator AND the equipment must be licensed. And the authorities won't license an Amateur Radio for Marine Band use.
(I live in Australia, and I can only tell you how it is done over here.)

Amateur Radio operators (folks who have to understand a lot about radios, and who often used to build their own equipment) are licensed to use anything they can get working on the Amateur (ham) bands. But they are not allowed to use the Marine bands, except in an emergency. So using a modified ham radio to check in to any of the Maritime nets on the Amateur Radio bands is technically a rule-breaker.

Conversely, mariners who are qualified to use a licensed Marine radio transceiver are not licensed or permitted to use the Amateur/Ham bands on any radio, except in an emergency.

So cross-band or cross-service casual chatting with friends and social stuff is a no-no.

But in any case, if you have an emergency, an SSB Marine radio without DSC is not going to do you much good on the marine distress frequencies, because very few authorities bother to listen for voice calls any more.

DSC won't do you much good unless your radio's numbered ID is already programmed and registered with the authorities (so they know WHO you are). Also the radio needs to be connected to a GPS so it can transmit your location automatically.

If you do get through with your SSB ham radio, you need to be able to give the remote station your position, as in Latitude and Longitude, explain who you are and the nature of your emergency. Then hope the person at the far end will pass your information accurately to the authorities. Also the HF bands have really poor propagation at the moment.

I know many people don't worry about the licensing aspect. But you should know the coast guard or customs at any overseas port you visit are entitled to ask for documentation to show your radio gear is kosher. And if it isn't, they could confiscate your gear and/or fine you.

I carry a 406 MHz satellite emergency beacon (a modern EPIRB) on my modest sized sailboat, plus an old (non-DSC) Marine VHF transceiver that was already installed when I bought it. I very rarely take a ham radio on board because it is hard to erect an efficient antenna on a-25 footer.

[GILow]

Dave, what you say is good, but I do think the comment about DSC not doing you much good unless the MMSI is not programmed in is a kind of mis-direction.


I think it is reasonable to assume that any properly installed DSC capable radio would have the MMSI programmed in and the GPS receiver connected. The whole concept of pushing the red button relies on the setup being correctly installed and even the most basic installation manual on my 802 clearly spells this out.


I do accept that there are probably radios out there WITHOUT those connections, but they should be on the minority, or at least the owners must be aware of the issue. For instance, the 802 will warn you about a missing MMSI every time you turn it on.


Matt

[IslandHopper]

At work we get more DSC alerts with no information than we do with, no position or anything, a regular occurrence....

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

At work we get more DSC alerts with no information than we do with, no position or anything, a regular occurrence....

Is the dreaded DSC 'mayday relay' still alive and well?

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Is the dreaded DSC 'mayday relay' still alive and well?

Yep, not as bad as it used to be though....these days if no info kill it, wrong hemisphere kill it, doesn't help anyone to keep passing the ball in those circumstances.....

[ka4wja]

foojin,
The answer to the question in the thread subject is, of course, yes....
But, the answer to your actual questions is rather long and complicated...sorry about that...
Please read this all and provide us with further info (that I ask for here) and you'll get a fairly accurate and totally honest, unbiased answer!

Assuming you're referring to most 12vdc-powered HF transceivers manufactured within the past 30 years or so?? Your idea of "planning to install a reasonably inexpensive used ham radio on our boat, and playing with it for the next year or so before sailing off."... has some merit...but...
But, depending on the radio (and on your willingness to learn about HF radio communications) might be an exercise in frustration...
(buy a GOOD working radio, install it properly, and learn about HF comms / HF radiowave propagation / HF RFI....and you should be okay...read further for some more info/insight..)
That's just my personal opinion.....but based on my own ~ 50 years of offshore sailing/cruising (on/off since a kid in 1965), about 45 years experience with HF communications, and almost 35 years running my own electronics firm...but, again, just my opinion...

Originally Posted by foojin

We are planning to install a reasonably inexpensive used ham radio on our boat, and playing with it for the next year or so before sailing off.


We will possibly add a marine SSB in the future.

So, is there a ham radio/tuner/modem set up to which a marine SSB could be a simple plug and play, using the same tuner and modem? Anything we should avoid or watch out for?

On our last cruise, a few years sailing from Thailand where we bought a boat, we used an Iridium phone for weather and text/voice coms, but don't think that alone was the best set up.

Originally Posted by foojin

Perhaps I used inaccurate terminology. I just wanted to know if there was a radio/antenna/tuner/modem setup in which I could easily switch radios if I wished. I thought I would like to set up something where the radio was interchangeable given current technology.

So, in that vein, I'd recommend either a basic HF radio (such as a used Icom "Marine" M-700Pro or even a used Icom "Ham" IC-735), assuming you can get either for under $500 (plus remote tuner, etc.)....and spending lots of time learning about HF radiowave propagation, HF radio communications in general, and RFI (Radio Frequency Interference)....Or...
Or, just start off with an Icom "Marine" M-802, at approx $1800 new (plus remote tuner, etc.)




Here are some more specific answers...



1) As some others have pointed out, the "antenna" (backstay, whip, home-brewed rope-tenna, alternative backstay antenna, etc. etc.), "the antenna ground system / rf ground" (low-impedance direct sea water connection, and/or misc RF conductive parts of your boat such as toerails, lifelines, etc., and/or artificial counterpoise such as "radials", etc.), the coaxial cabling from the radio to the remote tuner, and whatever tuner power wiring (and/or tuner power and control wiring), etc. are all compatible with whatever HF radio system you install...
And, the 12vdc power system for the radio (which should be a short. hi-current / low-voltage-drop, direct connection to your main house battery bank), as well as whatever RFI mitigation system you require (ferrites, etc.), are also compatible with whatever HF radio system you select...


Now of course, there are some variations in the exact 12vdc power plug used on the back of various radios (heck, even Icom isn't totally "standardized" here), and some other differences in various "accessory" plugs (such as tuner power, tuner control, optional external modem connectors, etc.)...but these are minor things to change if and when you change radios...




2) Also, as others have mentioned:
Icom tuners work with Icom radios....and SGC and SEA tuners will work with just about any radio...
And, in the Pac NW area, while Icom is still strong, both SGC and SEA have a rather high market penetration, as opposed to the rest of the US, EU, and the rest of the world, where Icom has the largest share of the pleasure boat / yacht HF radio market..

{BTW, SEA and SGC tuners are actually direct copies...not surprising as the companies have a rather incestuous relationship...}



FYI, over the past 30 years, Icom remote tuners for the ham radio market (AH-2, AH-3, and AH-4) are simply smaller versions of their remote tuners for the maritime market (AT-120, AT-130, AT-140, etc.)....but, understand that while the "AH" tuners are not designed for the higher-power and higher-duty-cycle of maritime transceivers, and are not spec'd/guaranteed to operate on the maritime frequencies, they usually do fine for most pleasure boat maritime users....(of course the maritime "AT" tuners, work perfectly on both the maritime and ham frequencies)


Also, be aware that SGC also makes remotes tuners for the ham radio market, which are smaller, and like the Icom "AH" tuners, are not designed for the higher-power / higher-duty-cycle of maritime HF comms....
So, while the SG-230 and SEA 1612 are great remote tuners, some other (smaller) SGC tuners are more like the Icom AH tuners, and some are worse....(just fyi...)




3) But, if I could impress upon you a few important facts/issues here, that get way over-looked in the attempt to save money, as well as simply ignored in the "instant answer" ability of the internet...
a) Please understand that WHERE (and how) you are sailing / voyaging, is a rather large determining factor in what type of communications you might desire / require...(and there's a wealth of info here on Cruiser's Forum, and elsewhere, to help you figure all of that out...)

And, you've made no mention of that....so, all we can do is give generalities...


{But, along the lines of generalities....
If your primary use is to receive weather info/forecasts when away from cellular and wi-fi, then take note that just about any modern HF radio will work fine for you, worldwide....


If your secondary use is for safety communications / distress communications, then MF/HF-DSC-SSB (which is part of the GMDSS) is certainly an important thing to consider, as there are > 450 MF-DSC coast stations and > 80 HF-DSC coast stations, worldwide....as well as 1000's of SOLAS grade vessels plying the hi-seas...all listening for DSC calls (but not Voice SSB calls)....now, if you're cruising area is entirely within range of the USCG HF communications stations (or those of Aus or NZ), then you can still raise them via SSB Voice, but that's it...


Please note there is a lot to all of this....and this is one reason why the Icom M-802 has become the defacto standard for offshore pleasure boats, cuz it's simple, gets the job done, and is fairly "idiot-proof"....}





b) Please remember that when comparing various types of long-range communications, the often compared HF radio (whether ham or marine SSB) versus some type of satellite communications, is a seriously flawed comparison, as these are "complimentary" system not competing system...as they do completely different things, in completely different ways!!
If you wish to compare e-mail and low-speed data comms when offshore and/or in remote locales, then the comparison can be made between using a PACTOR modem (connected to your HF radio ) versus satellite data comms....but understand that this is not a comparison between HF radio and satcom!





c) Please do not forget that when comparing radios, most sailors (damn near all) fail to understand some are "apples", some "oranges", some "pineapples"....and some are "green beans", some are "ribeye steaks", some are "kale smoothies", etc. etc.
And, some are new, fresh and ripe.....and some are old, tired, and rotten...
All of the above you can eat, and most of the various radios you'll get recommends for, you can talk on...some will be better, some will be bad!



How do you, the layperson sailor, figure these things out??
That's tough....mainly because it's human nature to tout whatever it is that you have, as the "best"...or at least tout it as the answer to everyone else's question....
So, you'll get many recommends, from many sailors....and some from professionals as well....that are well-intentioned, but unfortunately some can lead you down the embarrassing road of throwing good money after bad!


So, first off....
YOU need to determine WHAT you require the radio for???
And, then decide on the radio that meets that requirement!!!
I do not know what your requirements are (although from your words, I can guess that receiving good weather info/forecasts as well as voice comms, are your primary needs), nor where you will require these needs to be met...so, I cannot give you a specific recommendation, more than I did right up front...but...


But, I can recommend that you watch some Youtube videos, and read some of the "stickies" on the Cruiser's Forum Marine Electronics page...
And, then tell us where and how you'll be sailing / cruising / voyaging....
And, then we can be more specific...


Maritime HF Communications (in general)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nPNdApNsZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


HF-DSC Communications
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2n3z5nlv-ga2zYuPozhUXZX


Offshore Weather (info/forecasts when offshore and/or in remote areas)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2mPZAx2vWzdjTJjHlChruyY




Icom M-802 specific instruction videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2npivDjoFrC-8QKVyMb4tVr


VHF-DSC
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2m-IejYg7J6QugtO2epizxF


Offshore Sailing (just for fun)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nbwAGh5DKgTCj15iyl6qoY





http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-169164.html




4) Specific to these points....

Originally Posted by foojin

Perhaps I used inaccurate terminology. I just wanted to know if there was a radio/antenna/tuner/modem setup in which I could easily switch radios if I wished. I thought I would like to set up something where the radio was interchangeable given current technology.

Originally Posted by foojin

Is there anything other than marine nets where marine SSBs might have an advantage?

HF-DSC communications is only possible with a Marine HF-DSC radio (such as the Icom M-802 / M-801, Furuno FS-1570/1575, 2570/2575, Sailor 6300 series, etc. etc.)....
Please see item 3a above....

I won't drift this into an argument about the merits of HF-DSC....just please be aware that it's been with us now since 1992, mandatory for all SOLAS vessels and signatory nations since Jan 1999....and it does work...






I'm sorry for the long ramblings here.....it must seem like a pain to read thru all of this, since you seem to have asked a simple question, huh??

But, fyi....if you want the real, whole answer.....this is what you get....and even this isn't complete, as we don't know where (and how) you're sailing / cruising after you "sail off"...
So, please answer the questions I asked here, and we can surely get you pointed the right way...


fair winds...


John


P.S.
Here are some pics of my Nav Station, Radios, etc...






Enjoy...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Yep, not as bad as it used to be though....these days if no info kill it, wrong hemisphere kill it, doesn't help anyone to keep passing the ball in those circumstances.....

In the early days ( I gave up the day job 11 years ago ) it was a curse.

You would be swinging the ship into the berth in either fog or a full gale- with just me, the mate and the ship's dog on the bridge - and the bloody thing would go of with a noise to wake the dead... no STFU button so the only way to shut it up was.... hit the relay button... which was what someone else in an ocean far far away had just done before us ..

In all the years I sailed with it we received one vaguely relevant distress... ie same continent. The rest were either relays or as you say undesignated from either the Bay of Bengal or 0*N, 0*W....

There was a log 'out there' on the internet years ago which I can no longer find... a bit of finger trouble in the Canaries led to this thing bouncing around the Pacific forever and a day... several RNZN ships had relayed it 2 or 3 times..