What to look for in a delivery skipper

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by GILow

Oh, hello again.

There I am quoting your advice and you’ve restated it. (Except I thought it was a half day?)

We've recently upped it . Prices for everything have increased and the number of totally green buyers entering the market has us tightening our policies and increasing our prices.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by GILow

So, you are saying the lies told to me by the owner and the surveyor should have been my problem?

Oddly enough, the advice I got on this very forum was to put together a contract that protects me from these sorts of misrepresentations of the boat. One experienced delivery skipper advised I have a half-day clause to inspect the boat to see if it meets the survey description, otherwise I have the option to walk away with my costs reimbursed.

So clearly that delivery skipper has a deckhand mentality too? Because I actually thought they sounded pretty damn smart.

Too hungry or inexperienced? Sure, inexperienced, I’ve set out to learn, and learn I have. Hungry? Not really. I no longer have to work, but I’m keen to find things I can do with my partner that we both enjoy and deliveries may be one of those things. She’s turning into a fine sailor and a terrific travelling companion.

But I’m a lot wiser for the next job.

Very happy for you and your success at the delivery skipper role.

Boarpokers post just before yours has it about right. The boat has to be fit for purpose in his opinion. Not some unknown surveyor or other external party. He's putting his and his wifes butts on the line and the boat has to be ready to go. Getting reimbursed for his time is separate. I'm guessing if the boat isn't ready to go, he won't go even if the owner threatens not to pay him unless he goes. Honestly, I wouldn't limit to a day or half day. A larger, more complex boat being readied for a long voyage (2500 nms certainly counts, though depends on whether it's offshore or coastal). It could take several days to go through the boat. It takes however long it takes to make a decision to go/no-go. But once you go, you're pretty well committed. Sure some scenarios should be laid out - many newer skippers accept reduced fees for weather days. That should be spelled out. Etc.

It's the captains decision to go. Full stop. If the boat wasn't ready and you go anyway, that's on you. No one else. Certainly not a contract. Coming back afterward saying the surveyor missed stuff or the owner lied is BS (well, mostly - there are exceptions but not many). It's your decision to go.

Let me give you an example that came up frequently. Owner believes his motoryacht burns 7 gph at 10-kts. If I take his boat from Los Angeles to Seattle (1200 nms) and run out of fuel 125 miles short because the boat actually burns 12 GPH at 10-kts, who's fault is that (made up numbers)? But hey, the owner told me it would burn 7 gph @ 10-kts so not my fault...I have plausible deniability, right? I can tell you that 90% of owners believe their boat gets better fuel economy than it does. They don't even have to lie. They're just wrong and I cannot/will not rely on their representations when it comes to my business and the safety of crew and vessel.

I know I have not said this in a palatable way, but it's some of the best advice you'll receive. You need to accept full responsibility. Not just when things are going well, but when it isn't. If you are deprived information due to sketchy owner or survey, then either fix the issue or walk. Sure you should be compensated for your time - you had an expectation of a job and made yourself available. But if you make it a big issue in your contract or discussions, you'll sound whiney. It's a term that gets included In the end, you and the owner may disagree - you don't think the boat is ready but he's hired a surveyor who said it's in better shape than you believe it is. He may not want to pay you. That's unfortunate but unrelated to whether you think the boat is ready to go or not. It's your decision. That's why I say there's a difference in how a skipper views things and how a deck hand views things.

Good luck.

[Wotname]

It's the captain's decision to go. Full stop.
It's the captain's decision to abort. Full stop.

The captain isn't the hired help for the owner and is not beholden to owner in some sort of master / servant role. The captain is the professional providing a service to owner for a task that the owner is unwilling to do for themselves.

The contract needs to spell out the details to protect both parties. If one party falsifies a contractional condition, then that party is at fault.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Boarpokers post
…
Good luck.

Aside from the boar poker bit I kinda dozed off there. Sermons have that effect on me.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

We've recently upped it . Prices for everything have increased and the number of totally green buyers entering the market has us tightening our policies and increasing our prices.

Oddly enough my experience was with a totally green buyer.

So it was a case of green buyer meets green delivery skipper.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Wotname

It's the captain's decision to go. Full stop.
It's the captain's decision to abort. Full stop.

The captain isn't the hired help for the owner and is not beholden to owner in some sort of master / servant role. The captain is the professional providing a service to owner for a task that the owner is unwilling to do for themselves.

The contract needs to spell out the details to protect both parties. If one party falsifies a contractional condition, then that party is at fault.

For someone looking to hire someone, a good delivery person has that in their contract. It should reasonably protect both parties

[h20man]

Good podcast from in Latitude38 about lessons and delivery skippers.


https://www.latitude38.com/lectronic...rnstein-mustad


https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000640976406


Show Notes

• Arnstein Mustad on Yacht Deliveries
  • [0:22] Welcome to Good Jibes with Latitude 38
  • [0:35] John Arndt
  • [0:37] Subscribe to Latitude 38 at Latitude38.com
  • [0:48] Learn more at MustadMarine.com and @MustadMarine on YouTube and Facebook
  • [1:52] What’s a story that shaped Arnstein as a sailor?
  • [2:38] Seinfeld
  • [4:32] What boat does Arnstein have?
  • [5:02] Where do his deliveries take place?
  • [5:41] How did he get into boat deliveries?
  • [6:15] Does he cruise or race on his own?
  • [8:15] What’s the most difficult part about captaining a new boat?
  • [10:11] What are the most common surprises on a new boat?
  • [11:48] How do you find prospective captains for your boat?
  • [12:51] National Association of Marine Surveyors (NAMS)
  • [13:22] What questions should you ask a delivery skipper?
  • [16:42] How often is a boat owner aboard for a delivery?
  • [17:29] Social Media
  • [19:49] You can find your closest Latitude 38 distributor at Latitude38.com/Distribution. Did you know every month you can get your copy of Latitude 38 delivered directly to your mailbox? Subscribe at Latitude38.com/Subscriptions
  • [20:38] How do you find a crew for a delivery?
  • [21:09] Club Nautique
  • [22:08] How much crew should you take on a delivery?
  • [23:01] How much do yacht deliveries cost?
  • [25:02] What’s the most common boat problem?
  • [28:35] Lake Tahoe
  • [30:54] When’s the best time of year to do the Baja Bash?
  • [32:20] Cape Mendocino
  • [36:58] What technology does Arnstein use during deliveries?
  • [37:48] Does he ever do any recreational sailing or racing?
  • Delivery Community
  • [38:28] Is there a community of delivery skippers?
  • [39:18] What did Arnstein do before he became a delivery skipper?
  • [40:22] Working Waterfront
  • [40:41] What advice does Arnstein have for those considering a career in the maritime industry?
  • [41:35] COVID-19
  • [43:09] Check out the Latitude 38 Classy Classifieds at Latitude38.com/Adverts
  • Short Tacks
  • [44:11] What is Arnstein’s dream boat?
  • [45:34] What’s his longest voyage?
  • [46:55] Where hasn’t he sailed but wants to?
  • [49:04] What sailing advice does Arnstein have for the next generation?
  • [49:54] What’s his most important piece of safety equipment in addition to a life jacket?
  • [51:11] With the Old Breed by E.B. Sledge, Typee by Herman Melville, Sea People by Christina Thompson, The Wager by David Grann
  • [53:03] Check out the Latitude 38 Bookstore here for books recommended by Good Jibes guests
  • [53:15] What final thoughts does Arnstein have?
  • [53:38] Learn more at MustadMarine.com and @MustadMarine on YouTube and Facebook
  • [53:40] Make sure to follow Good Jibes with Latitude 38 on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
  • [53:42] Got a great sailing story to submit? Do so at Editorial@Latitude38.com
  • [53:45] Subscribe to Latitude 38 at Latitude38.com
  • [53:51] Email Nicki@Latitude38.com to advertise on this podcast or in Latitude 38 sailing magazine
  • [53:56] Check out the January 2024 issue of Latitude 38
  • Theme Song: Pineapple Dream by SOLXIS

[Tin Tin]

Captain Ron.

[Jammer]

I've been thinking about this a good deal.

The deliveries that go pear-shaped have several common threads:

1. Typically these are post-purchase deliveries. Deliveries incidental to racing, and deliveries where a boat owner is relocating a boat they use regularly, rarely go pear-shaped.
2. Typically the boat purchase, the post-purchase repairs, and the delivery itself are all on unrealistically tight budgets.
3. In most cases where the delivery goes badly, the new owner has limited experience in both sailing and boat ownership.

It's been a number of years since the CF community repudiated the then-popular "just cast off the lines and go" advice, which at one point was dispensed as a form of encouragement to people who had purchased boats with the intent of cruising but found themselves stuck in an endless refit. It took awhile before the obvious problems this advice posed were internalized.


I think a similar retrospective is called for regarding the prescription of a delivery skipper as the cure for all ills suffered by undercapitalized greenhorns. Looking beyond any single event, there's a pattern of problems where people have bargain-bin boats, no money, a tight schedule, and a lack of relevant skills and experience. Sending them to find a delivery skipper who will work with them and teach them sailing on the trip home is a crap shoot at best.


There are some fantastic delivery skippers including some who don't charge much but the bad apples are not just 1% of the pool. The ones who aren't fantastic have trouble finding work by referral and tend to be the ones who newbs will find when they're looking for someone available and affordable. The stories we hear are just the tip of the iceberg.


A year or two ago I solicited "zero to hero" stories from people whose first boat was a large one (I can't remember the threshold, 40' or something like that). There are lots of them. The common thread was money. They bought new boats, or newer boats in good condition, and they paid real money for classes and for a delivery skipper or just someone to be aboard and help them learn the first few times they were out.


I think that for the aspiring adventurer who just found a fantastic deal, well below market, on a 44' boat, and wants someone to teach them to sail for free or next to it, our advice should be to make a different plan. One involving a smaller boat in better condition, and one that leaves room for a plan to learn a little at a time in benign conditions rather than following a delivery schedule where Captain Ron is supposed to make everything OK.


To be sure, there are some fantastic sailors out there who CAN make everything OK on a marginally seaworthy boat, and who are in it for funsies not $$$, and who have friends who like to crew with them. But it's not 99% of the pool of people who answer the casting call when you're auditioning for your own Captain Ron. I would venture to say it's perhaps not even 90%. I suspect that there are plenty of disasters we don't hear about, because people blame themselves, or don't want to get into a mudslinging match, and indeed because most forums/groups/whatever have strict limits on bringing up bad experiences with vendors.


So I believe we should rethink our advice to new sailors. Don't use Captain Ron as a bargain cure-all for a bargain boat. Instead, buy local, start small, progress as you build skills, and realize that your first boat is not your last boat.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I've been thinking about this a good deal.

The deliveries that go pear-shaped have several common threads:

1. Typically these are post-purchase deliveries. Deliveries incidental to racing, and deliveries where a boat owner is relocating a boat they use regularly, rarely go pear-shaped.
2. Typically the boat purchase, the post-purchase repairs, and the delivery itself are all on unrealistically tight budgets.
3. In most cases where the delivery goes badly, the new owner has limited experience in both sailing and boat ownership.

It's been a number of years since the CF community repudiated the then-popular "just cast off the lines and go" advice, which at one point was dispensed as a form of encouragement to people who had purchased boats with the intent of cruising but found themselves stuck in an endless refit. It took awhile before the obvious problems this advice posed were internalized.


I think a similar retrospective is called for regarding the prescription of a delivery skipper as the cure for all ills suffered by undercapitalized greenhorns. Looking beyond any single event, there's a pattern of problems where people have bargain-bin boats, no money, a tight schedule, and a lack of relevant skills and experience. Sending them to find a delivery skipper who will work with them and teach them sailing on the trip home is a crap shoot at best.


There are some fantastic delivery skippers including some who don't charge much but the bad apples are not just 1% of the pool. The ones who aren't fantastic have trouble finding work by referral and tend to be the ones who newbs will find when they're looking for someone available and affordable. The stories we hear are just the tip of the iceberg.


A year or two ago I solicited "zero to hero" stories from people whose first boat was a large one (I can't remember the threshold, 40' or something like that). There are lots of them. The common thread was money. They bought new boats, or newer boats in good condition, and they paid real money for classes and for a delivery skipper or just someone to be aboard and help them learn the first few times they were out.


I think that for the aspiring adventurer who just found a fantastic deal, well below market, on a 44' boat, and wants someone to teach them to sail for free or next to it, our advice should be to make a different plan. One involving a smaller boat in better condition, and one that leaves room for a plan to learn a little at a time in benign conditions rather than following a delivery schedule where Captain Ron is supposed to make everything OK.


To be sure, there are some fantastic sailors out there who CAN make everything OK on a marginally seaworthy boat, and who are in it for funsies not $$$, and who have friends who like to crew with them. But it's not 99% of the pool of people who answer the casting call when you're auditioning for your own Captain Ron. I would venture to say it's perhaps not even 90%. I suspect that there are plenty of disasters we don't hear about, because people blame themselves, or don't want to get into a mudslinging match, and indeed because most forums/groups/whatever have strict limits on bringing up bad experiences with vendors.


So I believe we should rethink our advice to new sailors. Don't use Captain Ron as a bargain cure-all for a bargain boat. Instead, buy local, start small, progress as you build skills, and realize that your first boat is not your last boat.

You make a lot of sense.

[wholybee]

I think my story is a "zero to hero" that doesn't quite follow your pattern and could serve as good advice for some interested on cruising on a budget. Not an unreasonably small budget, but tight budget nonetheless.

In 2014, I decided I wanted to learn to sail. I had never sailed before. I enrolled in ASA classes and did 101-106 over the course of a year.
In 2015 I joined a race team, racing a boat owned by the same club.
At the end of 2015 I bought a Morgan 382. A seaworthy but also comparably inexpensive boat. Nice examples can be found for less than $40k.
In 2016, I decided I wanted to circumnavigate. To avoid the endless refit, I set a date that I could not push back. I paid the entrance fee for the Pacific Cup. Part of that psychologically was that the race committee would inspect my boat for seaworthiness, safety equipment, etc. They gave me a list of requirements, and I had 2 years to meet them. And if they signed off on the boat, it was safe, and there was no reason for me to delay my departure.
I spent 2 years working on the boat to meet US Sailing Ocean SER. That was tough and I did almost all the work myself. I am willing to bet that relatively few cruising boats meet those requirements.
In July of 2018, I placed third in division in the Pacific Cup race to Hawaii.
I completed my circumnavigation in June of 2022. I had very few surprises or failures, and I attribute that to a methodical plan and spending the time upfront to learn and prepare the boat.
The 2 incidents that could have been big. A broken strand on a shroud, found during a regular inspection in South Africa. Brand new a year earlier. I ordered a replacement overnight from a rigger in cape town, and changed it myself. And in the middle of the Atlantic my steering cable broke, also new just prior to starting the circumnavigation. I kept about 100 feet of dyneema on board for unknown emergencies (actually a requirement of the US Sailing SER) and it was a simple matter to heave too and replace the cable with dyneema because I was familiar with the steering system from doing that work myself prior to starting.
Neither was a problem or even carried much drama because I was prepared from them.

I have never added up the total costs, (and I don't particularly want to) but I guess $75k to buy the boat and refit, and an average of $1500 per month expenses during the circumnavigation. The monthly expenses started much higher, but as my cash ran out, I learned to be more frugal, and I could go a few months in a row at only $500-$600 each. Of course, there were a couple crossings of 30 days, with expenses of zero.

[JPA Cate]

I, too, think Jammer's post makes VERY GOOD SENSE.

And, I also think wholybee's plan did, too. The only problem with it is, imho the 60+ group of newbies don't even want to think about racing as a way to prepare for cruising. It is how I got my start, but Jim started out with a small daysailer, then a somewhat larger one, then a Catalina 22, before he ever had a keelboat. And it was a very long way before he was anywhere near 60.

The whole concept that one should count on being able to schlep one's way through a problem at sea successfully is ridiculous, Capt. Ron and You Tubes notwithstanding. It isn't easy to explain why without offending people who think their feelings shouldn't get hurt.


****
@ wholybee: We've had many miles with no apparent wear on our steering cable... I'm wondering if there is some misalignment with yours that caused the breakage?

Ann

[Mark D]

Great answer and for sure a good list to check for 'green or red flags' when checking with somebody to do a delivery.