What to look for in a delivery skipper

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Given the recent thread regarding a delivery that did not go well...

Which thread?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GILow

Which thread?

Probably this one
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ha-281124.html

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Probably this one
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ha-281124.html

Thanks Wottie (and thank you Ann). I hadn’t drawn the connection because I was just skimming the titles.

I’m reading this thread with interest as, despite my first attempt at the delivery business, I am keen to do some more.

For the record, my first attempt at a delivery was cut short after just 600 of the planned 2500 miles because I felt the boat simply wasn’t safe for the journey. The owner got a bargain because a) I didn’t have a contract in place that renumerated me for the miles covered and b) I performed over a week of repairs to the boat before setting out just to get it capable of completing the easy bit of the journey. Again, nothing contractual in place to pay for my time there.

I’ve learned my lesson, that’s for sure. And I got some helpful advice on how to structure my contracts in future from members of this forum.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by GILow

.
I’m reading this thread with interest as, despite my first attempt at the delivery business, I am keen to do some more.

For the record, my first attempt at a delivery was cut short after just 600 of the planned 2500 miles because I felt the boat simply wasn’t safe for the journey. .......

You abandoned a delivery one quarter way through and left someone's boat in an unexpected place where he now needs to make arrangements, probably at much greater expense and difficulty. And your takeaway is you need a better contract?

Wow..

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

You abandoned a delivery one quarter way through and left someone's boat in an unexpected place where he now needs to make arrangements, probably at much greater expense and difficulty. And your takeaway is you need a better contract?

Wow..

Wow...you know this because you know the details or do you know this because you don't know the details and wish to speculate.
I suspect it is speculation so here is some more speculation to consider -
Boat is 25% closer to destination at no cost to the owner.
Owner is now aware the boat is unsafe for moving by water.
Boat location is easier to arrange movement by road and the distance is shorter.
Owner is way better off than before and it cost him nothing!

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Wow...you know this because you know the details or do you know this because you don't know the details and wish to speculate.
I suspect it is speculation so here is some more speculation to consider -
Boat is 25% closer to destination at no cost to the owner.
Owner is now aware the boat is unsafe for moving by water.
Boat location is easier to arrange movement by road and the distance is shorter.
Owner is way better off than before and it cost him nothing!

Some things speak for themselves. His own words were that he terminated the delivery because he thought it was unsafe - he was not fired. Imagine hiring a mover to move stuff across country and he calls and says "the stuff was more difficult to secure than expected. I tried rearranging it but no-go. It's sitting at a storage yard near the Triangle J truckstop outside Des Moines. You owe me 25% of my fee, plus the time I spent trying to get it through."

Deliveries go wrong. It's part of the job. Sometimes a boat needs to be left somewhere unexpected due to scheduling. But the skipper here abandoned the delivery and wants to get paid for doing so. I understand his plight, but this doesn't sound like a contract issue. It's a lessons learned issue and maybe he doesn't have the depth of skills needed yet. The lost fee is tuition. He needs better skills at evaluating boats and situations, not a contract that pays him by the mile regardless of whether the job was successful.

As to how to vet a delivery skipper, in addition to asking if any of the vessels they have delivered have been subject to an insurance claim during the period for which they were skipper, would ask if they have ever abandoned a delivery for any reason or been terminated prior to completion of the delivery.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Wow...you know this because you know the details or do you know this because you don't know the details and wish to speculate.
I suspect it is speculation so here is some more speculation to consider -
Boat is 25% closer to destination at no cost to the owner.
Owner is now aware the boat is unsafe for moving by water.
Boat location is easier to arrange movement by road and the distance is shorter.
Owner is way better off than before and it cost him nothing!

Always look at the bright side of life..

[Uricanejack]

Perhaps a take away from the various stories of delivery gone wrong.

If you are a boat owner wishing boat to be delivered.
First ensure your boat is seaworthy and up to the voyage.
This will probably eliminate many of the problems which might otherwise occur.
Of course it depends on why you want to have the boat delivered rather than go for a sail yourself.
If you know the boats is not safe enough for you to sail then it’s probably best not to try and hire someone.

If you are buying a boat most people have it surveyed. Which should show any problems and recommendations to resolve.

Even with a survey and an experienced crew. Unexpected issue can come up.
Hence what kind of communication.
Might be very important in developing a plan

[GILow]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

You abandoned a delivery one quarter way through and left someone's boat in an unexpected place where he now needs to make arrangements, probably at much greater expense and difficulty. And your takeaway is you need a better contract?

Wow..

Jeezus mate, seriously?

I got the boat 600 miles closer to its destination, in a major capital city not a far northern rural outpost where I found it.

I did this despite the owner neglecting to mention all of the problems he’d had with the boat including the engine randomly not starting (yes, it had happened to him and he had not mentioned it when I asked him about the engine.), about the strange noises from the steering (yes, the surveyor had told him the steering would need to rebuilt on the next slipping, despite giving it a green light for the survey and he sure as hell didn’t mention THAT conversation.)

I found him a marina with the help of contacts in a major capital city where marina berths are like unicorns, at the same rate he was paying in the far northern rural outpost.

I left the boat with a working electrical system, which it most certainly did not have when I stepped aboard 600 miles earlier.

I left my own privately owned life raft onboard to give him options for the next stage even though I strongly recommended the boat be trucked (for thousands of dollar less from the new location) to its destination. I even offered him my AIS unit.

So seriously, get some facts before spouting off like an idiot.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

…

If you are buying a boat most people have it surveyed. Which should show any problems and recommendations to resolve.
…

Unless, of course, as in the case of my delivery, the surveyor was recommended by the broker. That was one absolutely useless and misleading survey.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Some things speak for themselves. His own words were that he terminated the delivery because he thought it was unsafe - he was not fired. Imagine hiring a mover to move stuff across country and he calls and says "the stuff was more difficult to secure than expected. I tried rearranging it but no-go. It's sitting at a storage yard near the Triangle J truckstop outside Des Moines. You owe me 25% of my fee, plus the time I spent trying to get it through."

..

Wow, it gets better.

You are right. I should have manned up and sailed a boat with failing steering, and very bad standing rigging into Bass Strait.

I should have just gone “hey, mvweebles would have ignored the risk to boat and crew and pushed on, I should do the same.”

At least then I could have told the owner where to find the bits of his boat after I’d stepped aboard my life raft. “The deck and coachhouse are washed up on Wilson’s Prom, the keel and standing rigging are in that deep bit just next to Lakes Entrance.”

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by GILow

Wow, it gets better.

You are right. I should have manned up and sailed a boat with failing steering, and very bad standing rigging into Bass Strait.

I should have just gone “hey, mvweebles would have ignored the risk to boat and crew and pushed on, I should do the same.”

At least then I could have told the owner where to find the bits of his boat after I’d stepped aboard my life raft. “The deck and coachhouse are washed up on Wilson’s Prom, the keel and standing rigging are in that deep bit just next to Lakes Entrance.”

Look, you were clear: your lessons' learned was you should have had a contract so you would be paid for the partial delivery. You wanted to be paid for effort, not results. Sorry, but that's the mentality of a deck hand, not a delivery skipper. I know this will sound harsh, but you were probably either too inexperienced or too hungry to decline the work. That's not a contract problem.

I spent 5-years as a full-time delivery skipper averaging over 200 days/year in deliveries, most over 1000 nms (disclosure: I stopped delivering sailboats after the first year). I had a good book of business and could pick/choose business and turn-down work I didn't think was a good fit. New skippers will take anything just to get the miles, or they need the money. That should be a huge red flag for anyone hiring a delivery skipper.....the topic of this thread.

So my two substantive contributions to this thread are to ask a candidate the following (beyond the standard resume/miles/deliveries/class of vessel questions):

1. Have you ever been associated with an insurance claim of any kind?
2. Have you ever had a delivery terminated before the vessel reached its destination?

"YES" to either/both of these is not necessarily exclusionary. It's the explanation behind them - whether they accept and recognize responsibility or are they are too quick to blame someone or something else.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by GILow

Wow, it gets better.

You are right. I should have manned up and sailed a boat with failing steering, and very bad standing rigging into Bass Strait.

I should have just gone “hey, mvweebles would have ignored the risk to boat and crew and pushed on, I should do the same.”

Contract addition ... Our contract pays us for up to a full day to inspect the vessel and assure ourselves that it is up to the trip. If we are dissatisfied, the owner can pay us to wait while he has things repaired or pay Sharon and I to go home.
His choice.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Look, you were clear: your lessons' learned was you should have had a contract so you would be paid for the partial delivery. You wanted to be paid for effort, not results. Sorry, but that's the mentality of a deck hand, not a delivery skipper. I know this will sound harsh, but you were probably either too inexperienced or too hungry to decline the work. That's not a contract problem.

I spent 5-years as a full-time delivery skipper averaging over 200 days/year in deliveries, most over 1000 nms (disclosure: I stopped delivering sailboats after the first year). I had a good book of business and could pick/choose business and turn-down work I didn't think was a good fit. New skippers will take anything just to get the miles, or they need the money. That should be a huge red flag for anyone hiring a delivery skipper.....the topic of this thread.

So my two substantive contributions to this thread are to ask a candidate the following (beyond the standard resume/miles/deliveries/class of vessel questions):

1. Have you ever been associated with an insurance claim of any kind?
2. Have you ever had a delivery terminated before the vessel reached its destination?

"YES" to either/both of these is not necessarily exclusionary. It's the explanation behind them - whether they accept and recognize responsibility or are they are too quick to blame someone or something else.

So, you are saying the lies told to me by the owner and the surveyor should have been my problem?

Oddly enough, the advice I got on this very forum was to put together a contract that protects me from these sorts of misrepresentations of the boat. One experienced delivery skipper advised I have a half-day clause to inspect the boat to see if it meets the survey description, otherwise I have the option to walk away with my costs reimbursed.

So clearly that delivery skipper has a deckhand mentality too? Because I actually thought they sounded pretty damn smart.

Too hungry or inexperienced? Sure, inexperienced, I’ve set out to learn, and learn I have. Hungry? Not really. I no longer have to work, but I’m keen to find things I can do with my partner that we both enjoy and deliveries may be one of those things. She’s turning into a fine sailor and a terrific travelling companion.

But I’m a lot wiser for the next job.

Very happy for you and your success at the delivery skipper role.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Contract addition ... Our contract pays us for up to a full day to inspect the vessel and assure ourselves that it is up to the trip. If we are dissatisfied, the owner can pay us to wait while he has things repaired or pay Sharon and I to go home.
His choice.

Oh, hello again.

There I am quoting your advice and you’ve restated it. (Except I thought it was a half day?)

Yes, I took what you advised on the other thread to heart and I will do the same. Still keen to have a crack at the delivery game, despite the painful lessons of the first attempt. (I’m about AU$2k out of pocket, which I suppose is a cheap lesson by boat standards.)

On the upside, my crewmate from the first attempt appears to have found love and a new home as a result of our travels. I’m very happy for him because he didn’t get the sort of sea miles he was hoping for.