Marinas using cameras for rules enforcement

[sailorboy1]

well

I am not interested in discussing US rights with Canadians on a BOATING forum

I must have had a very high pike of boredom for a minute

[sailorboy1]

Back on topic

The owners of a marina can not accept dogs if they don't like dogs. The one thing I have noticed is that boaters with dogs don't have to listen to them bark while they are off the boat, but everyone else sure does.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Last summer a fellow boater was singled out by management for violating the marina's unusually strong blanket prohibition on pets. Management is rarely on site and only became aware of the violation by reviewing camera footage.

I find this to be a disturbing extension of a societal trend; many apartment and condo managers have started using cameras not for safety or for investigation of criminal acts but rather for enforcement of petty rules against their own residents, particularly residents that they find unprofitable or burdensome for reasons unrelated to the actual rules violation being enforced.


Every marina I've stayed at has a long list of rules that are not universally followed, among them restrictions on maintenance and repair, limits on guests, limits on parking, and in some cases curfew times after which access to and from the marina is closed whether by land or sea. In essence everyone who uses their boat regularly is in violation some of the time.


Wondering if others are encountering this brave new world.

There’s an upside to the ubiquitous surveillance camera, the presence of it solves crimes with astonishing rapidity and often removes people of interest from the suspect list. Dash cams just solved a hit and run killing here in Australia, I have front and rear cameras on my SUV and it’s amazing how useful they’ve been.
The whole country of Singapore has CCTV coverage and one of the lowest crime rates in the world, and I’ve never seen a policeman in uniform or even a police car in Singapore…. ever. They did have armed soldiers ( conscripts) patrolling the airport once but on my most recent visit I never saw any. What they do have though is the fastest check in, bag drop, customs and immigration clearance that’s ever been experienced by me anywhere in the world. I went through terminal 4 processing without dealing with a single human being from taxi drop off to airside, totally automated. This is the future, no TSA queue, no pat down….. just don’t have anything stupid in your carry on….. I’m pretty sure that would activate a human response.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by wholybee

That argument makes no sense and is just a strawman. Of course being in public doesn't grant anyone access to those data points and never was it suggested that it does. And none of those data points are available to anyone taking your picture or recording you with cameras.

Good to see you're revising your statement. You wrote: "There has never been any assumption of privacy when you are in a public place." I pointed out, and you now agree, that we expect that most aspects of who we are should remain private, even in a public space. There are only a few specific aspects of privacy that we forfeit. This is a FAR cry from your original statement.

As for those other privacy data points, as was already pointed out, there is a real risk of losing control of these as well. Marry facial recognition with digital tracking, and it's pretty easy to have your whole life laid bare by this technology. So yes, the technology has changed from a reporter taking pictures on a street corner.

[Kd9truck]

There are rules because some where along the line some one abused the privilege. Having a dog in a marina ? They bark, the pee and poop, they can bite, they can be intimidating, the owners are mostly tone deaf to all of the list above. There are plenty of marinas if you don’t like the rules move on.
I have stepped in $hit in the marina parking lot thankfully I noticed before stepping into my car. I love dogs, owners not so much.
Cheers

[Shanachie]

If you think you retain privacy, read up on the big data companies sometime.


Supposedly, they know more about you than you do. They can predict where you will be on a given day, know your political beliefs, even how much beer you consume in a week.


The key to these databases is usually your cell phone number. This is why so many stories and companies are intent on getting it from you when you're making a simple purchase.


Having that number allows them to sell your data to them.


So if you join Costco, Sam's Club, etc., all of your purchases become information on you that is sold. Your cell phone location data also is sold. Likewise, the information your car insurance company collects with its app.



The information is widely used for targeting ads, but there are few constraints on who can buy it.



Sounds conspiratorial, but true. If my life wasn't so uneventful in old age, it would be scary.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

If you think you retain privacy, read up on the big data companies sometime.

Yes indeed. This is why no one should take this stuff lightly. We've allowed big data companies to operate with little limitations. As societies, and governments, we can still choose a different path. But it requires people to actually care, and not just roll over and give up on privacy as a concept.


As for dogs if there is a problem, it's easiest just to ban them all. But the problem is with the behaviours, not the dogs themselves.

[Fore and Aft]

Jammer, I bet there will be people at the marina who applauded management sorting the problem out. Would you have been so worried if he was caught emptying his holding tank in the marina?
Mike I don't understand what the issue is, once computers started being used for general tasks like banking etc then our privacy vanished. Personally, I have fully embraced it, I have nothing to hide and don't mind the gremlins in my computer highlighting sailing articles I may have missed or deals I may be interested in. A friend pointed out to me the other day that when we use Google maps on our phone for some reason home is already marked on the map. Google just did that as far as I know for me, but possibly I ticked some box. Who knows who cares, this technology is great I have used more than one internet coupon shopping that I would never have got without some gremlin spying on my background data. One thing is for sure if we cut back on "Big Brother spying" the criminals won't.
Cheers

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by Shrew

Think about the volume of data and time it takes to scour that data. There's 1440 minutes in a day. How fast can you reasonably FF through that content? Even at 10x, it would take 2.5 - 3 hours a day to scan the previous days video. Nobody is going to pay someone to spend 2.5-3 hrs a day scanning video for infractions.

Conclusion 1: They were looking specifically for that person.

Conclusion 2: They were likely observed, or observed and reported by a neighbor.

While Big Brother CAN watch, he rarely does. Don't give them a reason to go looking for problems.

It won't be a person doing the monitoring, it will be AI. Current technology allows a collection of cameras (too small to be noticed) to send data back to some computer somewhere (can be an ipad) and then AI will give the marina management an overview of everything that happened over a given period, highlighting behaviours which the management previously identified as 'undesirable'. This time it's pets, next time walking back to your boat having one too many beers.

Some years ago, a Google exec was questioned about this kind of technology and the response was, "well why be worried about that if you have nothing to hide?". And that is an argument often heard. But I would say, I have everything to hide, my entire existence, until I decide to share it with somebody else. If I choose not to share it, then that must surely be within some very basic rights that I have?

A world in which everything is known or knowable about everyone, by everyone, in my view is at best boring. More likely it will become an intensely hostile place. Got to be cautious with any of these outcomes.

But as someone else said, it looks like this ship has sailed, genny (sp?) out of the bottle and all that. We'd better try and manage the situation as humanly as possible from here.

Edit: in Switzerland the railway company put up cameras in all railway stations the other day to "monitor people flow to help improve the experience." Investigation instead uncovered they were partnering with commercial outlets purely for commercial purposes. Following public outcry they were all removed. Or simply hidden... But questioning this stuff is necessary, more and more.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Mike I don't understand what the issue is, once computers started being used for general tasks like banking etc then our privacy vanished. Personally, I have fully embraced it, I have nothing to hide and don't mind the gremlins in my computer highlighting sailing articles I may have missed or deals I may be interested in. A friend pointed out to me the other day that when we use Google maps on our phone for some reason home is already marked on the map. Google just did that as far as I know for me, but possibly I ticked some box. Who knows who cares, this technology is great I have used more than one internet coupon shopping that I would never have got without some gremlin spying on my background data. One thing is for sure if we cut back on "Big Brother spying" the criminals won't.
Cheers

What is privacy:

https://media.privacyinternational.org/w/7zVySBTDcJUpe3YqoAZK1x

[HeinSdL]

I recall a situation from a while back, 1990's, whereby a yacht club/marina in a rather upmarket part of The Netherlands was experiencing the occasional theft from boats.

So the committee proposed to install CCTV and this was voted on during an EGM. The proposal was rejected ("too expensive!"), surprisingly to some, and it was kind of understood that the kinds of things that were done on boats should better not see the light of day. You get the idea.

So what about that? Privacy is an extremely valuable option. You may not want/need to exercise that option, but it's sure nice to have that option nonetheless. Shouldn't surrender it, at any cost really.

[JPA Cate]

Mike, one thing you can do is leave the mobile phone in the same place, day after day.....

I do that. It stays on the boat; just like phones used to stay in the home. I personally do not need to talk to anyone so badly that I have to carry it on me all the time. Sometimes I take it for a little trip off the boat. Like if I expect someone from whom I want to hear to call. It IS a discipline. I also have little internet presence. FB and Amazon cured me.

Ann

PS. It's okay to be an outlier. You already were and you know it. There's a few of us.

PPS. Humans are vulnerable to invasiveness. To become blind and unfeeling about it will not lead to a good place. Forget you read this here.

A.

[Wotname]

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear assumes you are doing what is socially acceptable and is fine until the day comes when societal values change and you no longer fit into the new paradigm. Your recorded public past is now (at best) a hinderance.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Back on topic

The owners of a marina can not accept dogs if they don't like dogs. The one thing I have noticed is that boaters with dogs don't have to listen to them bark while they are off the boat, but everyone else sure does.

That's one of the big things I've found handy about having cameras on the boat. They have sound, so if we leave the dog on the boat, I can check a couple minutes after we leave that he's not being loud, and if he is, we turn around and either quiet him down, bring him with us, one of us stays behind, etc. depending on the situation. Realistically, him barking for more than a few barks has been rare, but I did walk back to the boat to hang out with him once when he was just in no mood to be left alone.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Wotname

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear assumes you are doing what is socially acceptable and is fine until the day comes when societal values change and you no longer fit into the new paradigm. Your recorded public past is now (at best) a hinderance.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Mike, one thing you can do is leave the mobile phone in the same place, day after day.....

My answer is even simpler ... I don't own a phone .