I thought sailing was supposed to be fun

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I believe that the root cause has to do with choices in how the forums are organized ...

... 1) Weak categorization. Posts in the wrong forums aren't moved to the correct forum as a matter of informal mod policy even when reported. The forum taxonomy is confusing making it common for new posters to post in the wrong place. Long-term participants usually monitor only those topics of interest to them, and weak categorization makes it hard to do that ...

Mea Culpa: I’m partly/mostly to blame for the Forum’s poor taxonomy.
We [first admin/mod team] originally organized the Forum topics to simulate a naval ship’s organization structure: navigation, engineering, construction and repair, medical, supply, and communications, from which it grew, somewhat organically.

[Mike OReilly]

I pay little attention to the site's organization. The only time I focus on it is when posting a new thread. Otherwise, I use the "new posts" button to see what threads are active. Or I'll check my "subscribed threads" to see if I've missed anything. I think mostly I follow the link from the email notification I get when new messages are posted to my subscribed threads.

So site organization is largely irrelevant to me.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Mea Culpa: I’m partly/mostly to blame for the Forum’s poor taxonomy.
We [first admin/mod team] originally organized the Forum topics to simulate a naval ship’s organization structure: navigation, engineering, construction and repair, medical, supply, and communications, from which it grew, somewhat organically.

And that was fine back then. There's no way you could have anticipated how the audience would evolve. The problem is it hasn't changed, except, iirc, for the addition of the lithium battery forum and covid containment area.



Need something like this now


Buying and selling a boat
-- choosing the right boat
-- buying
-- selling

Financial and paperwork aspects of boat ownership
-- insurance
-- financing
-- title, registration, documentation
-- communications-related paperwork: radio license, mmsi

Maintenance, repair, and refit
-- Watertight envelope: Hull and deck

-- Auxiliary propulsion
-- -- troubleshooting assistance
-- -- selection, refit, and use

-- Rig
-- electrical system
-- -- troubleshooting assistance
-- -- selection, refit, use

-- instruments and electronics
-- -- troubleshooting assistance
-- -- selection, refit, use
-- Communication: voice, data, emergency

-- Plumbing
-- --- etc
-- Paint and coatings
-- etc, use the taxonomy at defender, west marine, or any other major chandlery for ideas
Passages
-- passage planning
-- weather
-- life on passage
-- border formalities
Life on the hook (including docked and moored)
-- ground tackle and anchoring technique
-- dinghy

-- -- troubleshooting assistance
-- kids and pets
-- water toys and activities
-- -- scuba and snorkeling
-- -- sailboards and SUPs
-- -- canoe and kayak

-- food and drink
-- shore expeditions
Emergencies
-- Accident analysis, news, and statistics
-- First aid and medical
-- Lifeboats, PFDs, and recovery of persons overboard
-- Dealing with geopolitical turmoil and dangerous areas

-- -- covid
-- -- piracy
-- -- orcas
Performance sailing
-- discussion of major ocean races
-- participation in local races. Rules, handicaps, clubs

-- Technique





Etc. You get the idea. Then this stuff has to breathe, forums have to be split and combined over time to remain relevant as discussions evolve.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I pay little attention to the site's organization. The only time I focus on it is when posting a new thread. Otherwise, I use the "new posts" button to see what threads are active. Or I'll check my "subscribed threads" to see if I've missed anything. I think mostly I follow the link from the email notification I get when new messages are posted to my subscribed threads.

So site organization is largely irrelevant to me.

Same for me, mostly. I do appreciate how the site is organized. I'd honestly be surprised to find out that a significant number of CF regulars browse by drilling down by category, except when doing an advanced search.

[letsgetsailing3]

Sailing is fun. Online forums can be fun, but are sometimes hard to keep that way.

This forum has a lot of collective knowledge, and people willing to help others out. That’s the primary value. I’ve asked questions on this forum and gotten excellent responses that directed me towards a solution. This forum covers a topic I’m interested in better than any other I’ve found. The mods, for the most part, do a decent job. It's thankless work.

There are some topics that are flawed in design. The "Is your boat bluewater enough to do coastal cruising?", "My Herreshoff classic is better than your cheap cruiser knockoff", "My modern design keel proves that your full keel should be illegal in all 50 states and Europe", and "My racer/cruiser is better than your bathtub floating condo" are examples of these. One can sometimes tell where a person will align in these topics, as they've already voted with their money when they bought their boat.

Many online forums have become less fun because folks are so emotional about their politics, and seemingly can’t discuss any topic without trying to slip in some kind of code for “are you one of us?” or “are ya fur us or agin us?”, or “The other side is evil.” The fact is that politics have become more and more like sports teams. Your team isn’t always right, though most of your fans will likely agree that the other team is wrong.

Part of the nature of an online forum is that some folks feel so strongly about their opinions (or politics) that they're going to insert them at every opportunity, and try to present their opinions as fact. They may even call others names or try and diminish them, which is a logical fallacy in itself.

A person isn't a troll if they disagree with you. Likewise, they're not a troll if they point out that a premise that you've submitted as fact is incorrect, or an argument that you've made is logically flawed. Maybe they're just someone who notices. This is pushback that you should expect as a cost of having discussions in a public forum. If that’s not fun for you, think more before you post, or avoid controversial topics.

On the other hand, if you like lively debate, dive on in.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

On the other hand, if you like lively debate, dive on in.

No matter how "lively" the discussions get you usually always learn something.

Sometimes you talk a beating, other times you give one if necessary but the exchange of ideas is the point.

If it's too much for you use the ignore feature or just read the posts rather than get involved because there's lots of cyber bullying going on here.

Which I believe is much better handled by a 60 plus year old than some of what the kids have to deal with, but then again some are so set in their ways change is impossible.

Many though need to form alliances before attacking for what ever reason.........maybe some just are simply not sure of their position?

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Part of the nature of an online forum is that some folks feel so strongly about their opinions (or politics) that they're going to insert them at every opportunity, and try to present their opinions as fact. They may even call others names or try and diminish them, which is a logical fallacy in itself.

(italics added)

You nailed it there. There is a general erosion in distinguishing opinions from facts. It has reached a fever pitch in US politics. But to try to keep this civil, I will use the hypothetical of monos vs. cats. If someone comes on the forum and says "facts, smacts, I just don't care about 'em. I just have more fun when I am sailing on a spacious cat than a monohulll". That is an opinion and no one on earth should challenge them. Or if they think blue hulls are pretty and red ones ugly. Maybe try to learn more about their definition of fun and why they like blue, but hey, if that is what they enjoy, there is nothing I should do to try to convince them that my preference for monos and red hulls is the correct opinion.

But if they come on and say "I like cats because they are demonstrably superior to monos" and they go on to cherry pick performance and stability data that favors their argument, cite horror stories of detaching keels, and ignore all the facts that contravene their beloved cat, well, then we need to have an argument.

There is a nice saying I have quoted here before.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” Harlan Ellison

There seems to be a zeitgeist out there now is that "everyone's opinion is equally valid". If it is really just an opinion, like blue over red, OK. But if they start down the path of saying "My opinion is correct because..." and head down some alternative reality rabbit hole, then - no. Their 'opinion' is not necessarily valid and they have to support it with facts, evidence, and argument. Their opinion that is based on what they claim to be 'facts' can be the subject of argument and debate and is refutable. It most definitely can be shown to be wrong.

Sadly, some of the positions argued on CF wouldn't get these folks a passing grade in high school forensics class. They are in way over their heads, blowing smoke or echoing some gibberish from a crackpot web site.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions that are subjective and based on personal preferences. I love to hear them all and learn more about them. But evidence, logic, reasoning, etc. - if someone abuses them to prop up an 'opinion', they should expect real pushback. We should try to not be mean and assiduously avoid ad hominem attacks. But if someone floats an illogical ballon - it should be popped.

[Fore and Aft]

I think the problem is that there is no correct way to sail or maintain a boat. So everyone has an opinion and I think you sometimes have to stand back take a breath and realise that maybe you can do it that way. That's what makes Cruisers Forum so interesting and controversial.
I love hearing all those opinions.

Cheers

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I think the problem is that there is no correct way to sail or maintain a boat.

True. But would you agree that there are some incorrect ways to sail or maintain a boat? Like napping below decks with autopilot on in a shipping lane? So would it be more precise to say there is more than one correct way to sail (or maintain) but not all ways are correct. Distinguishing those is important - I have learned more than a few "don't do this" from CF!

[Fore and Aft]

Lestersails that is what is so sweet about sailing. To you me and probably 99% of the population napping while in a shipping lane is not the best idea. Yet I have met plenty of people who think nothing of napping below in a busy channel.
That's what I love about marine surveying, I constantly meet these people who defy the odds. Take what I think are short cuts in maintenance, seamanship and survive.
With the borders opening up I can't wait to see what turns up in our ports at the start of cyclone season.
Cheers

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I feel your pain, or your struggle, Lester. I do counsel avoidance as the primary response to trolls. As you succinctly explain, engagement is what these people want, so there is no direct response that doesn't give them exactly that. This only encourages more disruptive action.

I've found that if everyone really does ignore them -- talk around them -- most do give up eventually.

But I also profoundly understand the need to stand up to purveyors of false information, and to correct outright mis/disinformation. These are key tools of the troll, or the shyte-disturber (the two are not necessarily the same). I agree, it is important to counter false assertions. The challenge for us "good men" is to do so without engaging. Counter the claim, hopefully with clear evidence, and then go on ignoring the inevitable comebacks from the babblers.

BTW, I'm not very good at following my own advice . I get drawing into stupid banter with these people all the time. Partly that's because I try and give people the benefit of the doubt. But once it becomes clear they only mean to harm, I tune them out.

Then maybe respond to the misinformation within quoting the individual? Eg provide the correct response but ignore the wrong info? Might work?

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

To you me and probably 99% of the population napping while in a shipping lane is not the best idea. Yet I have met plenty of people who think nothing of napping below in a busy channel.

They say god protects dumb animals, small children, and sometimes idiots with boats.

They say that...

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Then maybe respond to the misinformation within quoting the individual? Eg provide the correct response but ignore the wrong info? Might work?

Yes, I think this is the only way that doesn't "feed the trolls." But even with this approach, it's hard. A troll, or someone who is just trying to stir the pot, doesn't care about the information. They only want disruptive engagement.

[Stu Jackson]

I've read this entire thread. Mike and I shared a lot of the Covidiots stupidity together.


Here's one for ya'll:


Guys asks about his Yanmar. Title says Yanmar. First line in post is Yanmar model #.


Guy answers about a Perkins.


I just left it to others.

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

I think the problem is that there is no correct way to sail or maintain a boat.

Nope - my way is the correct way (obviously)!