I thought sailing was supposed to be fun

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by karkauai

We seem to have lost our ability to engage in civil discourse. That doesn't mean that someone with a differing opinion should be banned from expressing an opinion...rather that he/she should be held to a standard of behavior that promotes honest, sober discussion. If Twitter or Facebook, or any other social media platform (CF) aspires to limit discussion in any way, it should be to promote healthy discussion, not to eliminate any particular point of view.

Fully agree. I've never been one to support silencing of voices. But I am a strong believer in holding people to account for their claims and assertions, especially extraordinary ones. And I don't believe all voices carry the same weight, or need to be listened to equally.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by karkauai

No one objects to a civil debate of differing opinions, it is the rancor and name-calling, and winning the debate at the expense of civil discussion that makes it offensive.

Not clear from your profile where you are writing from karkauai (maybe Hawaii?) but from where I sit in the good 'ol US of A, it is a bit more than this. There has been a loosening of the social constraints that had previously limited some truly reprehensible behavior. Really ugly stuff (like antisemitism) that used to be out of bounds, now seems to be back in bounds. Then there is the demise of some kind of social consensus based on accepted truths*. Things like denying the general validity of the scientific method. We have always had extremists on both sides - but they were (in my view) properly sidelined as 'fringe elements'. But the doors seem to have been flung back open and like in some B horror movie, the monsters are out loose in society. People seem to feel they have license now to say some quite despicable things that were just not said 20-25 years ago.

Back to your post - I think it is more than rancor and name-calling. I think Western societies are in big trouble because these bigger problems are afoot. I have thick skin so if someone wants to call me 'arrogant' or other names - it is just not going to bother me all that much. They should also be big boys and girls if I poke them for being uninformed or whatever.

But this is much bigger than name calling. It is an erosion of shared values and beliefs at a fairly foundational level. In CF we see that now and then on a handful of hot-button issues, but I don't think it is all that frequent in these fora.

*A good read if you are interested in some of this is "The Death of Truth" by Michiko Kakutani. She lays out in chilling detail how the roots of this can be found in what was a pretty fringe-y leftist academic subgroup but has now pervaded society more broadly and made an Evel Knievel leap to the far right.

[robertmfranklin]

Agree with DMF. Maybe its the Boston in me.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Not clear from your profile where you are writing from karkauai (maybe Hawaii?) but from where I sit in the good 'ol US of A, it is a bit more than this. There has been a loosening of the social constraints that had previously limited some truly reprehensible behavior. Really ugly stuff (like antisemitism) that used to be out of bounds, now seems to be back in bounds. Then there is the demise of some kind of social consensus based on accepted truths*. Things like denying the general validity of the scientific method. We have always had extremists on both sides - but they were (in my view) properly sidelined as 'fringe elements'. But the doors seem to have been flung back open and like in some B horror movie, the monsters are out loose in society. People seem to feel they have license now to say some quite despicable things that were just not said 20-25 years ago.

Back to your post - I think it is more than rancor and name-calling. I think Western societies are in big trouble because these bigger problems are afoot. I have thick skin so if someone wants to call me 'arrogant' or other names - it is just not going to bother me all that much. They should also be big boys and girls if I poke them for being uninformed or whatever.

But this is much bigger than name calling. It is an erosion of shared values and beliefs at a fairly foundational level. In CF we see that now and then on a handful of hot-button issues, but I don't think it is all that frequent in these fora.

*A good read if you are interested in some of this is "The Death of Truth" by Michiko Kakutani. She lays out in chilling detail how the roots of this can be found in what was a pretty fringe-y leftist academic subgroup but has now pervaded society more broadly and made an Evel Knievel leap to the far right.

You nailed it Lester - "It is an erosion of shared values and beliefs at a fairly foundational level".

I'll expand on this by saying that if Americans do not have a common set of values which we can anchor our society around, I see nothing but more conflict in the future. I don't see how we get to the point where we have a cohesive, unified society, based on what is happening now.

Not saying everyone has to believe all the same things about everything, but we need to have a set of common, core beliefs about humanity and society which are what defines a culture. Right now, I see it is dissolving before my eyes.

[Rumrace]

I hate it when goat nad threads get locked.
I love boating threads especially in the few areas I’m useful or think I am.
I’m Canadian so US politics are offensive time vampires and interrupts the view too often. We play beer hunter with visiting Americans a Canadian version of Russian Roulette but with 6 loaded beer cans ( one shook up) . We give them free bass but they still let Walmart ship us fake frozen salmon.
( no salmon content).
When I remember the 7 stupid countries that call Americans the loudest tourist on the beach I’ll write them in a thread and start an argument.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

You nailed it Lester - "It is an erosion of shared values and beliefs at a fairly foundational level".

Nah, it's just a bunch of old men set in their ways.

When all the old men in my neighborhood retired at age 65, I would see them in one car at the railroad tracks by the highway from my school bus on the way to school.

They had retired but had no hobbies....besides maybe their gardens and rain gauge charting.

They were all in there discussing things. This being early to mid 60's.

Within a year or so they wouldn't even speak to each other .........

Kinda like the cruiser that rarely sails but just works on his boat and "remembers when."

Try telling him he doesn't know something or say one certain thing about cruising or boat maintenance and he will totally lose it!

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Nah, it's just a bunch of old men set in their ways.

When all the old men in my neighborhood retired at age 65, I would see them in one car at the railroad tracks by the highway from my school bus on the way to school.

They had retired but had no hobbies....besides maybe their gardens and rain gauge charting.

They were all in there discussing things. This being early to mid 60's.

Within a year or so they wouldn't even speak to each other .........

Kinda like the cruiser that rarely sails but just works on his boat and "remembers when."

Try telling him he doesn't know something or say one certain thing about cruising or boat maintenance and he will totally lose it!

Good thing your not like this...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Good thing your not like this...:

Thanks, but I'm learning about it here on CF

[Gadagirl]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Good thing your not like this...

:

[Tetepare]

The whole premise of the topic is wrong. Sailing is fun on perfect days. When everything works. Cruising is rewarding, but rarely fun! Surviving storms and being becalmed, wondering where the poorly marked shoal is, and pushing off dragging boats, not fun.

I suppose golf isn’t fun either, but I have no experience. Fishing too is hit or miss. Auto racing is fun, till it’s not. Bowling I’d imagine is pergatory, but people do that too.

Do you suppose bowling forums have these issues? Are there those who incessantly cite anecdotes of a particular design that had three balls split in half? Are there dreamer idiots who buy a $20,000 ball for their first? Are there twit bowlers that make their own and then try to make the holes?

[Oeanda]

Oh you just know it. There’s no end to them blathering on about their balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPlqLHcphyw

[lestersails]

The topic of this thread is a bit murky. I went back and read the initial post. It seemed in parts to be "why isn't sailing considered fun?" but then segued to "why are people such trolls on CF?"
Reflects a general problem - some people are confused between reality and various forms of social media (of which I think we can consider CF to be one). As far as I am concerned, CF ain't reality.
Often useful.
Occasionally (perhaps actually rarely) infuriating.
But CF isn't sailing/cruising. I think about them as completely distinct.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by lestersails

The topic of this thread is a bit murky. I went back and read the initial post. It seemed in parts to be "why isn't sailing considered fun?" but then segued to "why are people such trolls on CF?"
Reflects a general problem - some people are confused between reality and various forms of social media (of which I think we can consider CF to be one). As far as I am concerned, CF ain't reality.
Often useful.
Occasionally (perhaps actually rarely) infuriating.
But CF isn't sailing/cruising. I think about them as completely distinct.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by patagoniadave

I cannot remember which thread it was, but a regular was lamenting how few people post here. Why are there so many lurkers who do not contribute? I have a theory.

This site is a cesspool of toxic communication between members. I have never seen so many negative, sarcastic, angry, cynical. condescending trolls and cyber bullies in one place. It makes it hard to read through old posts, and I can understand why people do not want to contribute.

I don't understand where it comes from? I find great peace and mental health in this lifestyle, even when things go wrong. If sailing makes you so upset, I do not understand why you continue to do it?

I believe that the root cause has to do with choices in how the forums are organized, operated, and moderated. To be sure, CF is successful, more successful than many forums on many topics.


However IMO there are a number of core site management decisions that discourage participation by long-term members, by those individuals who know the most and have the most to share. The key items are:


1) Weak categorization. Posts in the wrong forums aren't moved to the correct forum as a matter of informal mod policy even when reported. The forum taxonomy is confusing making it common for new posters to post in the wrong place. Long-term participants usually monitor only those topics of interest to them, and weak categorization makes it hard to do that.


2) Out-of-date moderation policy that does not consider context. Moderation policy emphasizes Sunday-school-appropriate language and surface civility. Some people who otherwise might contribute high-quality content are turned off by moderation they find stifling. Some people who might be driven away by well-deserved insults, keep posting.



3) Insufficient public recognition of high-quality, information rich posts, and the posters who write them.


4) Insufficient public recognition of posters' background and history e.g. miles sailed, years of sailing experience, etc.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by davefromoregon

You forgot anchors.

Oops so I did.