ITR Marine Heater Review and Installation

[SteelEagle]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Thanks for that, where I am docked in Subic is at a friends Superyacht conversion shipyard and he has lots of 2" 2 sided Fiberglass Insulation. I will wrap all sides and pack between frames in the bilges.

Also curious if you are plumbed to use your main engine heat to warm up the boat?

Our engine coolant is not plumbed to the heater, but we are considering the add on heat exchanger. You can override the heater circulation pump with the burner off and the exhaust plugged, this might be a good solution to providing heat in rough weather...

[Pelagic]

I guess different ITR models have different features, which caused “me” some confusion.

Specific to the Chinook, Marcello’s reply below clarifies that I will not need to purchase a separate heat exchanger and the 3 separate fluids do not mix

There is a connection for one engine at the back of the Chinook. A heat exchanger is built in the Chinook.

It is a large heat exchanger with 6 ports. two for the Hurricane boiler, 2 for the domestic water and 2 ports for the engine.

If you have two engines you would add another external heat exchanger.

Some engine manufacturers state you will void warranty if you attached plumbing. Almost everyone runs their engine through the coil of a water heater however.

Note there is no issue with our heater being oversized. We make the higher BTU heaters larger for that purpose.

It would just mean the heater cycles off more and may be on 20 to 30% of the time

We sell most of our heaters to the class A diesel motor homes. They use heat very rarely as they are always in a warm climate. They use our Oasis mainly for hot water. The burner is hardly on and they only put a 100 or 200 hours on a year.

I noticed that someone mentioned that the nozzles will get clogged up.

This is mainly a Webasto and Espar characteristic Of course you should turn on the boiler every two to three months but that is because of diesel fuel.

You would do the same thing with an engine or generator.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by SteelEagle

Our engine coolant is not plumbed to the heater, but we are considering the add on heat exchanger. You can override the heater circulation pump with the burner off and the exhaust plugged, this might be a good solution to providing heat in rough weather...

Hi SeaEagle
For me, it is all about keeping salt water mist out of the internals of the Chinook.

In reality, having the burner running with hot combustion gasses exiting under pressure outside, is probably the best defense if you don’t have the plug in.

However, in rough weather I like to keep it simple and will shut down things if not critical including the boiler.
So still looking for an internal shut off for the exhaust line

I do expect to motor sail a lot in the predominately light wind areas of the PNW so using the engine heat makes sense if it takes the chill out in which case the plug would be put in if anticipating a rough passage

Having said that, in my Chinook installation I’m in pretty good shape.

I will have about a 3 ft rise (min 12”) to a generous bend before heading to outlet which is already 14” above the boot stripe.

That exhaust run will be higher than my Perkins Exhaust and comes out beside where you see the doubler plate.

Fresh air combustion intake is even higher as I will run that from up on deck via one of the side vents as you can see from the green line.

Next stage for me is to crawl thru and measure for hoses or Pex, which I have never used

What does everyone think about using Pex vs Rubber Hose?

Marcello noted that one guy had lots of leaks with Pex

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

...

What does everyone think about using Pex vs Rubber Hose?

Marcello noted that one guy had lots of leaks with Pex

Millions of houses use Pex for hot and cold water usage, including heating. We have Pex in our house, and after 15 years, no problems whatsoever. We were going to use Pex for solar radiant floor heating in our house which would have had the Pex embedded in concrete. For our climate, it did not make money sense to install the radiant heating, so we did not put in the system. That was the correct decision, but when the cold hits in December and January, I wish we had put in the radiant heating, until I pay the mortgage.

The plumber who installed the plumbing in our house was quite conservative on what he would install in a house. If it failed, he was on the hook for it and he used Pex. Much less of a chance of leakage with Pex compared to copper which has many, many more connections.

The guy who built his own boat that I mentioned earlier used Pex and never mentioned a problem that I read.

My understand is that Pex has several types/brands of fittings and you need the correct tool that matches the fittings to get a proper connection. When Pex first came out the tool was expensive. I have read that price for the tools has gotten much better.

If we ever manage to build a boat, I want to use Pex for water supply and heating loops tied to an ITR boiler. Plus a Refleks stove.

Pex does have an upper temperature range for the water, but it should be below what the boiler is putting out, so check the Pex rating. From memory, Pex was 180F.

Later,
Dan

[SteelEagle]

Originally Posted by dannc

Millions of houses use Pex for hot and cold water usage, including heating. We have Pex in our house, and after 15 years, no problems

PEX is great in a home, they don’t vibrate.

We have PEX for our fresh water and heater hose for the furnace coolant. I can’t count how many leaks in the water system we have had, doesn’t seem to matter what type of fitting we use or who it was installed by. Our water does taste great though.

The heater hose in our furnace system has been leak-free since it was put in 20 years ago (on that note I should probably replace it soon). I would not be comfortable with our heat relying on pex in Alaska, in the winter, your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

In reality, having the burner running with hot combustion gasses exiting under pressure outside, is probably the best defense if you don’t have the plug in

I agree, the only issue is our heater will inevitably cycle, even if we put max demand on it. This might be a function of our heater being slightly oversized for our needs.

I think your proposed installation arrangement would work great for the heater, and is similar to ours. I’m sure we could run the heater in rough weather and in reality would likely be fine, we are just very precautious as we are so reliant on our heater most of the year and really don’t want to replace it.

Since the chinook has an engine heat exchanger installed already, seems like a great idea to plumb it in with some shutoff valves for isolation. We motor sail a bit too and would like the option for heat without running the burner.

[Pelagic]

Thanks, SteelEagle,
A number of private messages plus your caution, convinced me to stay away from Pex in a boat installation.

Marcello also mentioned that Pex radiates far more heat than Rubber so decided to go with ¾” Rubber Hose which is at 1” OD. (I just need to find a 1 1/8th inch carbon steel drill bit that will fit my 5/8” drill as CORTEN steel, drills like stainless.)

The final item I need to decide upon is whether or not to remove my 220Vac electric Hot Water Tank?

Thinking out loud:

In the tropics, this well insulated tank stayed hot forever, reheated quickly and provided me with a useful additional load for the 12 Kw 220v Generator if occasionally needed only to charge batteries.

At Anchor in the summer Gulf Islands, my guess is that we won’t use the boiler for heating the cabins.

While solar may handle most of the 24v demands, I think our Gen will be used more.
So Summer PNW mode could be with Electric Hot water rather than via a diesel hot water on a summer loop

In Winter, PNW… Heater for Cabin plus Hot potable water plumbed thru Electric Tank with 220v breaker shut off seems to be the most efficient way to keep things warm.

I drew this plumbing diagram for either Electric or Chinook diesel hot water being plumbed thru my tank.

Will that work?

Marcello says the Chinook has an internal mixing valve to regulate heat, but I don’t yet understand how it works.

My gut feeling tells me to keep the Electric Hot Water Tank for future use in the Tropics

Your opinions?

[rslifkin]

Personally, I'd keep the water tank. You could always plumb the heater loop through the tank heat exchanger so the boiler keeps the tank warm, but then in warm weather, you don't have to run the boiler for hot water and can heat it electrically.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

So Summer PNW mode could be with Electric Hot water rather than via a diesel hot water on a summer loop

Marcello says the Chinook has an internal mixing valve to regulate heat, but I don’t yet understand how it works.

My gut feeling tells me to keep the Electric Hot Water Tank for future use in the Tropics

Your opinions?

Hi Pelagic, there's enough here to make my brain hurt but I'd just like to share-

- For energy management, those of us who prefer to anchor most of the time our goal is to decrease electrical load. I'd rather run the burner for 5 minutes to take a shower or do dishes, then turn it off, rather than keep it on all the time and have hot water available 24/7.

Our burner is rated for .4 gallons of diesel per hour, so 5 minutes is a tiny amount of fuel, compared to how much generator time would be needed to put that energy back if the hot water is created via electricity.

- Our unit has a mixing valve for regulating how hot the water gets that is simply a knob. Turn it one way for hotter, the other for cooler. Being an "on-demand" system the water will lose some heat as it travels from the burner to the tap, so set the temp for the hottest you want out of the tap.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by SteelEagle

PEX is great in a home, they don’t vibrate.

We have PEX for our fresh water and heater hose for the furnace coolant. I can’t count how many leaks in the water system we have had, doesn’t seem to matter what type of fitting we use or who it was installed by. Our water does taste great though....

This thread is the first time I have read of PEX leaking on boats. I have read a bunch of discussions on TF, CF and elsewhere, regarding PEX on boats, and not seen any/many mention of leaks.

I would be curious as to why there are leaks.

There is yet another conversation on CF about PEX and the vast majority of the posters love the stuff.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-233911.html

Later,
Dan

[Paul L]

pelagic,
A couple of comments.
1. On keeping the hotwater tank. Your boat is large, so space may not be an issue. The on demand hotwater works very well on the ITR and uses next to no diesel. So the hotwater tank is just another maintance item.
2. Using the engine coolant to heat ITR system. I did not set this up. It adds the cost of fittings and heat exchanger. It adds a half dozen places for your engine coolant to leak over the years. If you are motoring all day you are burning through a fair amount of diesel per hour. The small additional added by running the ITR at its duty cycle will not be very noticeable.
If I was going to be places where heating is critical, then I would add a bus heater radiator to the engine system in the main cabin. It would put waste heat into the cabin and be a completely independent heating system from the ITR - a cheap backup.
3. As far as pex goes. There are a lot different end fitting styles and dimensions. The international versions are not all the same dimensions. I ended up using radiator hose, after having a hard time tracking down a consistent pex set up.
4. Not sure if you are a 220 or 110v ac boat. The ac heater on a 110 boat is not much wattage on the ITR. It is not enough to run on demand hotwater. It is also not additive to the diesel, it is exclusive. It would probably be good enough to avoid freezing in the cabin if tied to a dock on an unattended boat, but you'd have to override the aquastats if you have them. I installed the AC on ours, but we never use it because of the lack of on demand hotwater.

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by dannc

This thread is the first time I have read of PEX leaking on boats. I have read a bunch of discussions on TF, CF and elsewhere, regarding PEX on boats, and not seen any/many mention of leaks.

I would be curious as to why there are leaks.

There is yet another conversation on CF about PEX and the vast majority of the posters love the stuff.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-233911.html

Later,
Dan

8 years with pex on my boat no leaks, I have seen boats with 4-5 joiners where I had none, maybe that’s the issue, the beauty of pex is it will take a curve like copper, you just have to work with it properly, yes I did have mine installed by a pumper, my best friend owns a large mech company and likes to get on the tools himself once in a while.....I’ve been looking at some changes and he has said some new products used for infloor heating are better than the stuff he used 8 years ago, technology moves on......

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

At Anchor in the summer Gulf Islands, my guess is that we won’t use the boiler for heating the cabins.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You might be surprised. Don't rule out the need for heat.

[Pelagic]

Thanks to All for your input on the electric hot water tank and PEX vs Rubber.

Ironically, I just spent 2 days replacing all my Aircon barnacle plugged hoses in 43°C heat index, so while a heating system was the last thing on my mind, it did give me an intimate knowledge of running the heater plumbing thru the boat!

ITR sent me this great improvement on my plumbing sketch which is an either/or solution

• A full insulated tank of hot water during tropical or generator times. (note, my Invertors can reheat to temp this electric hot water tank as it only draws 6a @ 220v)

Or

• The ITR 1.5gpm instant Hot water via the Chinook diesel boiler (or via the engine waste heat run) (or via the dual 1500W x 220v electric elements available in the Chinook).

Hi SV Grace, if we have 4 people on board (2 couples). then I don’t think 1.5gpm would be enough after dinner if two showers and the dishes were being washed.

I agree it would be fine for just Zaida and I and it will probably be our default whenever we need cabin heat, but as we have a 24v 30gph water maker, we don’t ask our guest to skimp on their showers. I prefer them smelling sweet!

If ever I have problems with that Tank, I would probably replace it with a smaller insulated tank that circulates the ¾” ID heating fluid more efficiently to get to temp with an electric element backup for the tropics.

Marcello sent me some photos of the Red/orange heavy duty hose they recommend and the spring clamps and connections they use, which I have more confidence with using as I will be installing myself.

The rubber hose is more flexible than PEX, bends easier, Radiates heat less.
Main downside is a larger 1”OD vs ¾” OD for the PEX for drilling thru my watertight steel bulkheads.

Finally, as Paul L notes, PEX is a great product in evolution, so parts replacements when travelling could be more challenging.

So will keep the hot water tank as rslifkin suggests and will go with Rubber Hose and silicone elbows.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by SteelEagle

Ignitor, flame sensor, fuel filters, air filter, fuel nozzle, hose. We are contemplating carrying a spare fuel pump and circulation pump next winter.
We have spray foam insulation on the entire inside of the hull about 2-4" thick depending on location, except the engine room floor and a foot-wide race down the bilge for water to run (it's dry).

When a large temperature differential exists, our uninsulated engine room floor does condensate a little bit, which is annoying. I only see this in water temps around 32F/0C and it seems to go away once the water warms up to about 41F/5C, our engine room runs about 85F/29C with the heater running. We run a dehumidifier in the winter, maybe more fans would help? I would insulate what you can.

We are looking forward to a solution for the heater exhaust...

Hi Sea Eagle,
As you are a steel boat owner in Alaska, I'm interested in your thoughts about me mounting 2 of the heaters just under the cabin floors

Sketch shows Zones 3 and 4 Fans under the floor, which would then be drawing cooler air from the bilges rather than recirculating warmer air above,

Is that a bad idea that would cause excessive heat loss during the winter?

If ok, it saves a lot of precious storage space in accomodation

I will insulate those frame spaces under the waterline that do not already have insulation.

Cabin Fans Revision 2:
• I reduced the Zones down to 4 and used 4 x High Output 6093, to keep equipment all the same.

Is anyone using those 6093 fans.... are they noisy?

[SteelEagle]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Sea Eagle,
As you are a steel boat owner in Alaska, I'm interested in your thoughts about me mounting 2 of the heaters just under the cabin floors

Sketch shows Zones 3 and 4 Fans under the floor, which would then be drawing cooler air from the bilges rather than recirculating warmer air above,

Is that a bad idea that would cause excessive heat loss during the winter?

If ok, it saves a lot of precious storage space in accomodation

I will insulate those frame spaces under the waterline that do not already have insulation.

Cabin Fans Revision 2:
• I reduced the Zones down to 4 and used 4 x High Output 6093, to keep equipment all the same.

Is anyone using those 6093 fans.... are they noisy?

I think mounting under the floor would be best. Ours are mounted that way and it keeps air flowing all throughout the boat (especially important for us steelies) when it is cold, windows shut, and would otherwise be little to no airflow.